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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:30 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:28 pm
Posts: 603
Location: Wisconsin
Great work! Have you patterned any of these loads? Just wondering if the lack of a tall shot cup on the SG28 was apparent in patterns?




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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:22 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
I did pattern them... since the SG28 is the OEM wad, the patterns are pretty much the same for the RIO hull.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:11 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1139
This is a brilliant thread, and I am very thankful to and impressed with mbedit!
I spent a few hours today searching for 28ga ammo flats, looking for good prices for future loading. Decided RIO is both available now and a great price, and started searching for threads/posts on how the hull is to reload, what components are needed vs. what I have or can get, prices etc.

Read a bunch until I found this thread, wow it's all here! Fantastic pics and analysis, and really clever on how you used the bushing chart.

I will apologize ahead of this question, I know I could search and find your source probably, but you've got me heading to garage to measure interior diam of 28 and 20 ga hulls that I think I can plop a card into, then ordering one of those great punches. Then searching for Maxam powder probably csb1 or csb5 to replicate the rio loads possibly. Then looking for Green Dot, which is what I needed for light 20ga loads anyways. It's good to have a project ;)

SO... where are you getting your reloading data for these RIO hulls with the Guilandi wads, the CB wads, the primers, and the Green Dot/BlueDot/Unique combinations? Alliant doesn't give anything.
Are you just working up from inference to other data? I'd just like to know as I'm not bold enough to do that as of yet, and would love to see the load data you're working from if there is some.

If you're working these up without load data, then you clearly are scientifically working it, and I'd be interested in getting pressure data on these loads, and would be willing to contribute $ to the cause ;)
I'm interested in your best 28ga RIO load that results in a clean, economical skeet load. From your prior posts I THINK that as of now that you're leaning towards:
RIO hull, RIO primer or Cheddite or Fiocchi (good cost on all, fit the hulls nice?), CB-5028-AAHS wad or SG28, GreenDot.

One thought on overshot cards. I've been studying steel reloading, RSI data and BPI; both say overshot cards and filler wads above shot don't affect the load and can be put in as desired for fit. I read several times of using a cheerio--yes, breakfast food cheerio-- on top of shot in same manner as overshot card to prevent dishing and help create a good fit. I laughed it off, and guys have poo-pooed the idea usually. Last week I tried it while loading old AA CF and new AAHS, without resetting the crimp starter or wad pressure on my Sizemaster. One of them had a lower shot column. I added the cheerio, and sure enough it produced very nice crimps. Obviously a nice shot card from one of these punches is better, but you might give it a try while attempting to bulk up the shot column for these crimps.

Thanks again for your detailed study of this, hope you continue!
Dave


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:08 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Dave, Yep, I've stuck some of my breakfast in hulls as filler and your absolutely right, it works just fine!

Your correct that you're probably not going to find anything published directly citing the Rio Hulls, but the consensus is that they are same as cheddite hulls.

There are plenty of published recipes for chedite hulls, and those are what I started with, and then made small incremental changes to try and find the best stack of components that would give the best crimp.

With the right components, you shouldn't need to use an overshot card.

I use the Nobel 209 primer in all my loads, AA or Rio, which again has been shown to be exactly the same as the win 209. You can certainly use 20/28 powder with the Rio too, and with the Guilandi, they will dish a bit but will load and fire just fine.

Again, there are more published loads using the 20/28 powder than Green Dot or Unique, and I would always recommend that someone start with published data.

As to having an idea of when it might be ok to substitute a powder... the place to start is to get a powder burn rate chart.

You can find recipes for 28 ga for powders that burn as fast as Red Dot / Clays, or as slow as Blue Dot / lil gun, but at the those fringes results that I've seen are less than optimal for a standard skeet load. I'd reserve those loads for the times you just can't find anything else, or use the slower powder for a heavier load.

20/28, Unique, Universal all are pretty close and seem to hit that sweet spot for a standard 28ga skeet load, and you'll find the most recipes them.

I tried the green dot based on Federal Straight Walled data, and was impressed, but unless your comfortable trying it, I'd suggest Unique or 20/28 as there are published chedite loads using those.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:55 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1139
mbedit, thanks much.
With Cabelas now selling RIO 28ga cartridges online AND in the store, for a very good price (like $95 out door I think), including some great 1oz loads in 7.5, and with these good reports of hull reloadability, I think I will buy some flats of the RIO. Loading components will be cheaper with cheddite and rio and fiocchi primers about $5-$15 less per 1000 right now most places than Win/Rem (Fed209A are decent prices).

If you have done any pressure testing of various 28ga rio/cheddite combos, I'd love to see any data; I think a lot more pressure-tested loads exist out there than folks realize, as the data isn't accumulated and published anywhere that I know of when private individuals submit shells for testing. As a benchrest shooter and loader for rifle, it's so annoying to not be able to work up shotshell loads in the same manner with reliable pressure signs...sure wish I owned a pressure barrel and ballistics lab!

I haven't found solid RIO/Maxan powder (CSB1, CSB5, etc.) data yet, though some is showing up lately... with Maxan entering the US powder market and CSB being available in 55lb kegs for decent prices, I can see myself going wholly to the "Factory RIO replication" if Alliant continues to be so difficult to acquire. Republican is doing some good work in this area.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:01 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
I don't see how you can go wrong using OEM components to reload them, and yes Republican is a wealth of knowledge here! Luckily for me Alliant powder has come back in good supply in my area, so I went back to using 20/28 powder, which for that load BPI has published pressures of 9900 at ~1200 fps.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:45 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 2053
A big and hearty THANK YOU to Moderator Curly No-hair for "sticky-ing" this awesome reference of a thread {hs#

Yuk, yuk, yuk . . . !!! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:52 pm 
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mbedit, thank you for the well thought out analysis. I have been stepping over, or in even worst case, stepping on them for years with no regrets. Will not do that anymore thanks to you.

I am in AZ for the winter and am loaded up with 8500 rounds of 28 gauge in AAHS hulls. And like Curly, I don't understand the short hull life you have experienced with them. I am going to start hording 28 Rios in the future. I do load my 28's with 3/4 oz. of #9 shot so I will need to do some investigation of my own but that will have to wait until I get home in WA. My only issue that I see is the size of the shot cup on the Gulandi wads, would rather see more of the shot column protected. Would be interesting to see pattern comparisons between those and the CB wads.

Again, thank you for clueing me into a source of FREE 28 gauge hulls. Wonder how long shooters will continue to toss the. You would not believe how many of those were tossed away at the World Skeet shoot. Even then most folks there shot Winchester, Remingtons or Federals shells. You also see a lot of federal 28 once fired tossed on the ground.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1139
customstox,
Not sure were you are in AZ, but I haven't seen a 28ga hull of ANY flavor last on the ground for more than 2 minutes after the round was over! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:52 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Yeah, At the range I shoot there is one other gent who's got a clue and the club just saves all the RIO 28's for the two of us. I recently just loaded about 300. I've also found that my mech sizemaster was dropping light lead loads, about .70oz instead of .75, and that extra .05 can make a difference in a nice crimp!

Even if you only re-load those as few times... free 28ga hulls are great value!


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:05 pm 
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Dave, I shoot at Ben Avery almost every day. Going to Phantom tomorrow morning.

Was on field 11 two days ago and there was about two boxes of Federals on the ground. I have not seen any RIO's there recently but I have at Registered shoots. I did not even give them a thought when I saw them in the past. I have discussed loading them and mostly I heard that it was a one or two reload thing. Sounds like it is much better than that.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:30 am 
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You guys are missing out on the perfect 28 gauge powder as far as I am concerned.

ProReach beats 'em all.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:51 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
Pro-reach is a fine powder for 28ga, but its not necessarily the the best for loading RIO hulls IMO. Alliants data recommends around 16 to 17gr for a 3/4 oz load, and as shown above, pro-reach would require 20 to 21 gr to stack up right.

Personally, I'm just not that comfortable extrapolating out that far based on data provided... especially when the published loads are already pushing 11,000 PSI at 1300fps.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1139
Customstox wrote:
Dave, I shoot at Ben Avery almost every day. Going to Phantom tomorrow morning.

Was on field 11 two days ago and there was about two boxes of Federals on the ground. I have not seen any RIO's there recently but I have at Registered shoots. I did not even give them a thought when I saw them in the past. I have discussed loading them and mostly I heard that it was a one or two reload thing. Sounds like it is much better than that.


Good to meet you today, Chic!


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:47 pm 
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It was nice to meet you too Dave. Are you still watching soccer games? :D

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1139
Whew... all done now, 3 games, they came in 2nd.

Rio 28ga hulls-- just a note, I emailed BPI asking if they'd run any tests using the largest hull out there, the Rio, since 28 is space constrained and they were starting to put HW and ITX loads using Rio 12 and 20ga on Load of the Week.

Got nice emails back from 2 folks there, they said since they can't acquire unfired 28ga Rio hulls in sufficient quantity to do test runs, they would NOT be doing any tests for now on Rio. Real shame, because it IS the largest hull out there. Good news is, it should give similar results as Cheddite but maybe slightly lower pressures since larger volume...

I'm using Rio hulls to load up nice 1oz of HW13#4. Using the BPI cheddite recipe 131030 5206L-6,4. 115 pellets with 2.5" gel penetration (geese) to 56 yards. Perfect fit in the Rio, and a better goose load than I can buy for the 12ga.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
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Location: Wilmington, NC
I tucked my BPI manual away... but jsut out of curiosity, what wad are they using with that load Dave? Sounds like a great load!


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:31 pm 
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mbedit,
That's a TPS28. Pretty much everything non-tox they load in a TPS28. I haven't patterned it much, but a scientific guy who has (toasty, not sure if he's on this forum) says it patterns very well, and much better than the option for heavy loads, the HV28, a Gualandi wad. There are a few loads for HV28, and quite a few with 1oz of lead that work fine. However, he says the TPS28 patterns so much better it's not worth using the HV28 despite it being 1/3 the cost.

It really is a great load; and what's even more surprising, there's nothing BPI publishes to match it in 20ga! In 2-3/4" 20ga they have one load for 1oz at 1170fps for ITX13 (HW13). In 3" hulls they have one cheddite load for 1oz HeviShot, using 2 primers, at 1400-1450fps. For HW13 they onlly have 7/8oz loads.

With HW13, or denser materials, you get extremely tight patterns with open chokes, and because the HW or TSS pellets (from RSI or Hawglips) are extremely round and hard, you get really good patterns. But the density means it takes up very little space, and usually a LOT of spacers are called for, since it needs thick steel or tungsten wads (usually roomy). All this adds up to the 28ga being the PERFECT fit for 1oz of HW, which is plenty with the smaller #4 pellets for geese or #6-9 for ducks.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:39 pm 
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I wish you guys would stop with the 28 gauge stuff, you're going to cost me some money! I've been putting off buying a 28 gauge gun and this is not helping! :oops: Seriously, great thread!

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 Post subject: Re: 'Improved' RIO 28ga hulls?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:47 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:36 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Wilmington, NC
I love 28ga. Its become a hobby with-in my hobby! and thanks for the info Dave!




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