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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:07 pm 
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Now THAT is pretty. The 1100 20's on GB right now seem to look nice but there aren't any great pics on there.




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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:11 pm 
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The classics are beautiful guns. I'll take a few pheasants again this year with this 870 20 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:50 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Image

https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... an-classic

If you want quality of walnut, quality of bluing, overall a gun to be proud of . . . it will cost more than matte finishes and average walnut or plastic.


Randy, the 1100 Classic lists "B" Grade walnut and the 1100 Sporting lists Semi Fancy American Walnut.

I'm assuming the "B" Grade is better but you've seen both. In your opinion, how much better is the wood on the Classic?

I'm shooting a Competition Synthetic now and really like it and am considering getting a Walnut version for the beauty, nostalgia, and appeal.

Thanks Randy


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:16 pm 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
i believe i just said i've had a wingmaster of recent vintage and was impressed with it.

that v3 walnut wouldn't make it in my safe on a bet. express finishes and ugly checkering pattern ain't getting it done no matter how well the gun functions. i've owned plenty of guns that cost less so it's not a snob thing...the gun is just flat friggin ugly and the finishes scream cheap.


Never said it wasn`t an economy gun. Maybe we can agree that what one person values is different from what another values? Me? I want a gun that I can depend upon to work when I need it to and while I admire a fine firearm`s looks as much as you, I`ll bet, it`s outward appearance is not the only consideration. Just me! {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Basstar wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
Image

https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... an-classic

If you want quality of walnut, quality of bluing, overall a gun to be proud of . . . it will cost more than matte finishes and average walnut or plastic.


Randy, the 1100 Classic lists "B" Grade walnut and the 1100 Sporting lists Semi Fancy American Walnut.

I'm assuming the "B" Grade is better but you've seen both. In your opinion, how much better is the wood on the Classic?

I'm shooting a Competition Synthetic now and really like it and am considering getting a Walnut version for the beauty, nostalgia, and appeal.

Thanks Randy


It is a significantly higher grade.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:53 am 
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The V3 is a good enough gun that I'd be willing to pay extra for a deluxe model with polished bluing, good wood and sharp checkering.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:07 am 
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lossking wrote:
The V3 is a good enough gun that I'd be willing to pay extra for a deluxe model with polished bluing, good wood and sharp checkering.



Ditto. The V3`s operating and gas system begs for an "upscale" model, IMO. Just can`t see it not being a winner. Could do that and still keep the "economy" version, a la Wingmaster and Express model 870`s.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:27 am 
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Randy said so early on, so I can only sort of echo his statement using my experience with my V3 aka Miss Piggy.

IMO, the V3 design is to all current gas autos what the Model 1100 was when it was introduced. It is a paradigm shift in design and attributes. Nothing else comes close to incorporating the quantum jump in design improvements that the V3 does. Nothing! The Versa Max was the beginning and the V3 is the culmination of that greatly improved gas system.

Some may not like it for whatever reason; and that is o.k. Miss Piggy and I are fine around such unsophisticated louts. LOL

Furthermore, it seems to me that is why there are several gun makers making various models. I too would love to see a fully "finished" version like Tide suggests. I cannot see how it could fail to win converts but then again there is that "personal" opinion thing. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:06 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Jeepwm69 wrote:
LOL. They changed the name. Still the same conglomerate of companies that were bought and then used as leverage to borrow money while destroying the actual companies.



Not true. Cerberus is G-O-N-E.

And, Marlin is now doing extremely well. https://www.americanhunter.org/articles ... gust-2019/

GunBroker.com Announces Top Selling Firearms for August 2019


Lever-Action Rifles
1. Marlin 1895
2. Marlin 1894
3. Marlin 336


Selling well doesn't mean the product is well made.

Go on over to the Marlin board and read the about the Remlins and problems with them. There are 262 separate threads that pop up by simply typing "Remlin rant" into the search box on the Marlin board.

They do seem to be getting better, but there were several years where they were horrible, and if one can get a JM Marlin in good shape why would you want to take a chance at getting a lemon? There's a reason you can get a new 336 for $350 and a used JM marked Marlin will bring $500.

I'm not a Remington hater. I've grown up shooting Remingtons. Have everything from my great grandfather's 1900 to the 4 11-87's I've bought in the last couple of months.

They are NOT what they used to be. I'm sure that some of their guns are fine, but a lot are not, and that has not always been the case.

The 3" 12ga Wingmasters I bought in the late 80's when we had to go to steel shot cost me $325 , so the prices haven't changed when you adjust for inflation. They were flawless. You can undoubtedly find good ones that are current production, but I wouldn't buy one without going over it with a fine-toothed comb. Back then one with issues would be a rare exception. Now finding a good one without major issues means you got lucky.

The said can be said about most firearms manufacturers. Smith and Wesson and Colt's quality control went to crap in the early-mid 70's. Winchester in the early 60's (the late pre 64 guns weren't as good as the mid-late 50's). High Standard went downhill in the 70's. Remington and Marlin made good stuff much later than most US manufacturers, but they have fallen victim to the Freedom Group and while they might be getting better, they are NOT what they were 30 years ago. You can find good guns from every manufacturer if you want to look, but the days of going in and buying ANY one off the shelf with little chance of it having easily noticeable flaws are gone. There are always lemons that make it off the line. The number of lemons has gone WAY up while the number of good guns has gone way down. I'm not saying ALL Remingtons and Marlins are crap. They aren't. I've bought several in the last year or two. I'm saying that overall, the quality is WAY down as a whole, and that is a FACT.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:29 am 
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Jeepwm69 wrote:
I'm not saying ALL Remingtons and Marlins are crap. They aren't. I've bought several in the last year or two. I'm saying that overall, the quality is WAY down as a whole, and that is a FACT.


It isn't a fact at all, whether you use ALL CAPS or not. I know better, based on personal experience along with watching them made in person. Blather about "quality" means nothing, what quality is being referred to?

The quality at Remington took a big jump up when Marco was president: he is a "production guy." That happened concurrent with their written lifetime warranty. If you are after facts, just what problems has anyone had with current Remington product that Remington didn't take care of?

If your assertion is remotely true, there should now be hundreds of posts about 2019 Remingtons with horrible defects that Remington has refused to fix.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:37 pm
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I recently came across a remlin 94 built late 2016. It slicked up well and with a few springs and parts changed out is a keeper. I have heard the latest builds are even better. The early remlins are a bit suspect, but they have been working to improve production. I would not hesitate to buy another new build.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Jeepwm69 wrote:
I'm not saying ALL Remingtons and Marlins are crap. They aren't. I've bought several in the last year or two. I'm saying that overall, the quality is WAY down as a whole, and that is a FACT.


It isn't a fact at all, whether you use ALL CAPS or not. I know better, based on personal experience along with watching them made in person. Blather about "quality" means nothing, what quality is being referred to?

The quality at Remington took a big jump up when Marco was president: he is a "production guy." That happened concurrent with their written lifetime warranty. If you are after facts, just what problems has anyone had with current Remington product that Remington didn't take care of?

If your assertion is remotely true, there should now be hundreds of posts about 2019 Remingtons with horrible defects that Remington has refused to fix.


"has refused to fix". Never said anything about them not being willing to fix problems, I said that they have problems. So it's ok to buy a new piece of crap as long as the company will fix it?

I don't want to buy something that needs a warranty.

These 11-87's I bought this fall were rough, right out of the box. Garbage ugly plastic stocks (I have factory Remington plain black synthetic stocks that are MUCH better than these circa 2017 sets), crappy uneven finish, and the internal surfaces have burrs and rough spots all over them. MSRP is over $600.

I got them cheap on closeout (even posted a thread here to help other folks find deals on them) so I picked them up for the kids. They ALL needed work to be "right" by my standards, not to function, but to be like a Remington was out of the box back in the 80's and early 90's. Smooth actions that don't hang up. I shouldn't have to smooth things up on a NEW gun. The finish isn't something that can be easily fixed, but the manufacturers have all duped people into thinking they need "matte" finished guns to hunt, putting it out there like it's an upgrade when in reality it just cheapens production. All the manufacturers do this, not just Remington, but the quality of finish on the blued Marlins and Remingtons isn't what it used to be either.

My Supermag 870 wouldn't eject shells without work. How many of these were repeatedly sent back to Remington without being fixed? A simple google search says A LOT.

The Remlins have commonly had crappy wood-to-metal fit, sharp edges on the levers, and canted sights. Again, look at the marlin boards and simply type in something like "Remlin rant" or "Remlin problem" and you'll get HUNDREDS of threads on just that one forum.

Remember Century Arms kit builds? They worked, but they looked like they were put together by angry monkeys. That's what Remington has been in recent history.

The OP asked a question. Your replied with YOUR experience. I replied with mine.

I don't think "Look one over closely before buying" is unwise advice for ANY firearm these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Jeepwm69 wrote:
The 3" 12ga Wingmasters I bought in the late 80's when we had to go to steel shot cost me $325 , so the prices haven't changed when you adjust for inflation. They were flawless. You can undoubtedly find good ones that are current production, but I wouldn't buy one without going over it with a fine-toothed comb. Back then one with issues would be a rare exception. Now finding a good one without major issues means you got lucky.



This is certainly not correct regarding new production Wingmasters or 1100s, which are as good as ever, if not better. It also doesn't seem hold true about Veramaxes or V3s, either, though I don't consider either of them "nice" guns, they are working guns, or in the case of the V3, really a budget gun, but it seems like the vast, vast majority of them sold are problem-free.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Jeepwm69 wrote:
"has refused to fix". Never said anything about them not being willing to fix problems, I said that they have problems. So it's ok to buy a new piece of crap as long as the company will fix it.


Quote:
Here are my thoughts on your gun selection. You should not buy a Beretta A300 or any other Beretta owed product for that matter, and here is why. Let me start by saying, I really like the A300 and I think it is a good value and it is made in America. We use them at our scout ranch and they are very dependable. I researched other guns and selected the A300 over the Remington V3 and Winchester SX3. But Beretta’s customer service is deeply disappointing and a disgrace to the gun community and they made me regret my choice.

It started when I purchased an A300 from a big box sporting goods store at a very good price. I looked at the display model and when I decided to buy, they brought out a boxed one from the back. I gave it a quick look over and then took it home. When I got home, I discovered that what I thought was cardboard and packaging particles on the receiver, was actually pitting to the base metal. I was disappointed, but never having a bad gun buying experience in the past, just assumed I could box it up and take it back and exchange it for one that was not defective.

GUN BUYING TIP: make sure you look over any gun before you purchase it. Inspect everything, assemble everything, cycle it, etc. Because once the paperwork is done, you own it regardless of any problems you may find.

Upon returning to the store the next day, they offered a $50 cosmetic discount or they could send it back to the factory for evaluation and repair at no cost to me. While it sucked not having my gun for a month, I decided to send it back. While the store was writing up the return slip they pointed out a few other issues, a small dent in the fore-end, poor finishing on the stock, and a mismatch of the stock and the recoil pad. I had noticed those issues at home and they were not really a concern, but the stock finish was annoying, with a texture that was not even as smooth as a 2x4, so we decide to include those defects as well. My primary concern was pitting to the base metal on the receiver. It looked bad, might get worse, and would likely rust. I’ll try to attach a picture to this post.

Next, comes the most disappointing part of the story -Beretta customer service. After several weeks they contacted me to tell me that the issues were all considered cosmetic defects and as such, none were covered under warranty. They offered to replace the fore-end at a cost of about $150, they said they would buff out the stock at no cost, but for the receiver, there was nothing they could or would do. They also said the stock/recoil pad mismatch was within acceptable tolerances. They said it was my fault that I did not inspect the gun better before I purchased it and the topper -I bought it, so I own it. I told them I was expecting a quality product from a reputable US company, so I had not been too concerned about inspecting it closely before going home. At this point, I was doubting the quality of this gun and other guns from Beretta. If such an obvious defect like the pitting gets past their quality department, assuming they have one, what else did they miss?

Attempts to speak with a manager or further pursue a more appropriate solution were shut down. I was told there was no one else to speak with about the matter and nothing more could or would be done. I politely explained how angry and disappointed I was and that I would voice my feeling on internet sites. Their reply was “go ahead and do what you need to do”. So here I am, one guy, writing and posting this review to warn others of Beretta’s poor quality control and shameful customer service. The following companies are owned by Berretta and while they make some great products, I’ll never spend a penny on them. Of course, you do what you like. Beretta USA, Benelli, Franchi, SAKO, Stoeger, Tikka, Uberti, and Burris Optics are all owned by Beretta.

The big box store was extremely supportive during the entire process and in the end offered me a full refund for the A300 since support from Beretta was so poor. I now shoot a Mossberg 930 Sporting Pro purchased from the same big box store. It is a bit different than the other guns I considered, but a lot of gun for the money, lots of cool features, it shoots great, and it is made in America.

It too had a problem when I purchased it, the front sight was skewed, lucky me. I contacted Mossberg, the got back to me the next day. They said it looked terrible and sent a FedEx label so I could exchange the barrel for a new one. It took a while to finally get the new barrel because the 930 is done in limited runs, but that is more representative of customer service you expect in the gun community. You wouldn’t go wrong if you purchased a Winchester or Remington either. I just don’t recommend Beretta and they told me to let you know that.


Far too many companies do not make things right.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:53 pm 
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S.davis wrote:
Jeepwm69 wrote:
The 3" 12ga Wingmasters I bought in the late 80's when we had to go to steel shot cost me $325 , so the prices haven't changed when you adjust for inflation. They were flawless. You can undoubtedly find good ones that are current production, but I wouldn't buy one without going over it with a fine-toothed comb. Back then one with issues would be a rare exception. Now finding a good one without major issues means you got lucky.



This is certainly not correct regarding new production Wingmasters or 1100s, which are as good as ever, if not better. It also doesn't seem hold true about Veramaxes or V3s, either, though I don't consider either of them "nice" guns, they are working guns, or in the case of the V3, really a budget gun, but it seems like the vast, vast majority of them sold are problem-free.




I`ll be the first to admit that the walnut variant V3 is hardly a beauty queen, nowhere close to svelte as, say, the Fabarm guns. Try as I might, though, I cannot recall a single negative post on SW concerning any functional problems aside from a couple with a bolt issue. And yes, they are indeed working guns, manufactured to sell at an economy price point.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Comparing RemLins and Remington shotguns is a stretch.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Marlin Mike wrote:
I am going to buy my grandson a new 20 gauge auto this weekend. I have always owned owned 1100's.


I'll get specific: whatever your theory of Marlin has about 0% to do with what you are asking: the Marlin production line is in a different part of the Ilion plant and has nothing at all to do with 1100s or 11-87 production at all, good or bad.

Both the 1100 and 11-87s are solid steel receivers and are expensive to make. They are the softest-shooting 20s on the market, as they are heavy.

Cheap-finished 1100s are priced accordingly. Moving on.

For the 11-87 walnut, you have one 20 gauge model: 20 Gauge with 26" RC barrel and Mod Choke. https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... sman-field

The 1100 Sportings are well-finished: https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... ing-series .

The 1100 Classic is stunningly good, dripping with high quality: https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... an-classic

Image

If you want a gorgeous (but heavy and soft-shooting 20) the American Classic 1100 is the gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
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Virginian wrote:
Comparing RemLins and Remington shotguns is a stretch.


Just making a point that quality control went to crap for both companies when they were bought out by the same corporate raiders.

If you want to believe that everything magically got better all the sudden that's your prerogative. I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Jeepwm69 wrote:
Virginian wrote:
Comparing RemLins and Remington shotguns is a stretch.


Just making a point that quality control went to crap for both companies when they were bought out by the same corporate raiders.

If you want to believe that everything magically got better all the sudden that's your prerogative. I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap.




Certainly your, and everyone else`s, prerogative. Just curious, though. How would you ever determine if indeed Remington`s quality actually achieved what, for you, would be acceptable for purchase of a new product?

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Jeepwm69 indicates that, "I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap."

That sir, is YOUR prerogative. However, why then are you on a "I Love My Remington" forum? You lost?




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