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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:38 pm 
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oyeme wrote:
Jeepwm69 indicates that, "I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap."

That sir, is YOUR prerogative. However, why then are you on a "I Love My Remington" forum?


Because with exactly three exceptions (a High Standard 410 pump, a Mossberg 930 brick that I picked up cheap for the wife to use duck hunting, and a Charles Daly Superior), every shotgun I own are Remingtons.

My first shotgun was an 870LW 20. I have several 870's and several 11-48's. As stated previously, I have my great grandfather's Remington 1900. I recently purchased FOUR 11-87's.

I like Remington Shotguns. I like the lines, the ergonomics, and the designs. What I don't like is the fact that the quality control isn't what it used to be.

I would very strongly recommend that the original poster buy an 1100 or an 11-87, but it's easy to find one in excellent shape that was made 20 years ago, and the fit, finish, and quality control will be superior to anything they've made lately. Would be cheaper too.

I purchased three of the 11-87's for $249 each, and the other 11-87 for $124. That is the only reason I bought them. They are serviceable and easily worth what I paid for them, but there is no way I would have paid anywhere close to MSRP for them. They sat on the shelf for over a month at $349 and I didn't even consider buying them at that price. They are functional but rough. And yes, they were all brand new in boxes.

What can I say? I'm picky and like nice things, and the post Freedom Group Remingtons I've seen and held don't impress me.

If the OP is set on a new gun, I strongly recommend that he look a gun over VERY carefully before taking it home.




Last edited by Jeepwm69 on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:46 pm 
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Don't get the impression that I hate Remingtons. They're all I've ever shot, and more or less all I own. I'm just not blindly loyal to the brand. They have made great guns for a LOOOONG time. In fact, I inherited my paternal great grandfather's 1900 about 10 years ago, and just his past year I inherited my maternal great grandfather's Remington Elliot derringer.

They aren't what they used to be. Their stuff isn't as good as it once was.

The same can be said for every big US gun manufacturer, but in the case of Remington and Marlin, the quality control went downhill with the Freedom Group. Can it get better? Yes. Will it get better? Probably.

My point is you cannot blindly grab a currently produced gun that says "Remington" on it and expect it to be a well made firearm anymore. You used to be able to.

They still make good ones, but you better check one over very thoroughly before you buy, because they've shipped a lot of crap that wouldn't have passed inspection and wouldn't have made it out the door 30 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:59 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Jeepwm69 wrote:
"has refused to fix". Never said anything about them not being willing to fix problems, I said that they have problems. So it's ok to buy a new piece of crap as long as the company will fix it.


Quote:
Here are my thoughts on your gun selection. You should not buy a Beretta A300 or any other Beretta owed product for that matter, and here is why. Let me start by saying, I really like the A300 and I think it is a good value and it is made in America. We use them at our scout ranch and they are very dependable. I researched other guns and selected the A300 over the Remington V3 and Winchester SX3. But Beretta’s customer service is deeply disappointing and a disgrace to the gun community and they made me regret my choice.

It started when I purchased an A300 from a big box sporting goods store at a very good price. I looked at the display model and when I decided to buy, they brought out a boxed one from the back. I gave it a quick look over and then took it home. When I got home, I discovered that what I thought was cardboard and packaging particles on the receiver, was actually pitting to the base metal. I was disappointed, but never having a bad gun buying experience in the past, just assumed I could box it up and take it back and exchange it for one that was not defective.

GUN BUYING TIP: make sure you look over any gun before you purchase it. Inspect everything, assemble everything, cycle it, etc. Because once the paperwork is done, you own it regardless of any problems you may find.

Upon returning to the store the next day, they offered a $50 cosmetic discount or they could send it back to the factory for evaluation and repair at no cost to me. While it sucked not having my gun for a month, I decided to send it back. While the store was writing up the return slip they pointed out a few other issues, a small dent in the fore-end, poor finishing on the stock, and a mismatch of the stock and the recoil pad. I had noticed those issues at home and they were not really a concern, but the stock finish was annoying, with a texture that was not even as smooth as a 2x4, so we decide to include those defects as well. My primary concern was pitting to the base metal on the receiver. It looked bad, might get worse, and would likely rust. I’ll try to attach a picture to this post.

Next, comes the most disappointing part of the story -Beretta customer service. After several weeks they contacted me to tell me that the issues were all considered cosmetic defects and as such, none were covered under warranty. They offered to replace the fore-end at a cost of about $150, they said they would buff out the stock at no cost, but for the receiver, there was nothing they could or would do. They also said the stock/recoil pad mismatch was within acceptable tolerances. They said it was my fault that I did not inspect the gun better before I purchased it and the topper -I bought it, so I own it. I told them I was expecting a quality product from a reputable US company, so I had not been too concerned about inspecting it closely before going home. At this point, I was doubting the quality of this gun and other guns from Beretta. If such an obvious defect like the pitting gets past their quality department, assuming they have one, what else did they miss?

Attempts to speak with a manager or further pursue a more appropriate solution were shut down. I was told there was no one else to speak with about the matter and nothing more could or would be done. I politely explained how angry and disappointed I was and that I would voice my feeling on internet sites. Their reply was “go ahead and do what you need to do”. So here I am, one guy, writing and posting this review to warn others of Beretta’s poor quality control and shameful customer service. The following companies are owned by Berretta and while they make some great products, I’ll never spend a penny on them. Of course, you do what you like. Beretta USA, Benelli, Franchi, SAKO, Stoeger, Tikka, Uberti, and Burris Optics are all owned by Beretta.

The big box store was extremely supportive during the entire process and in the end offered me a full refund for the A300 since support from Beretta was so poor. I now shoot a Mossberg 930 Sporting Pro purchased from the same big box store. It is a bit different than the other guns I considered, but a lot of gun for the money, lots of cool features, it shoots great, and it is made in America.

It too had a problem when I purchased it, the front sight was skewed, lucky me. I contacted Mossberg, the got back to me the next day. They said it looked terrible and sent a FedEx label so I could exchange the barrel for a new one. It took a while to finally get the new barrel because the 930 is done in limited runs, but that is more representative of customer service you expect in the gun community. You wouldn’t go wrong if you purchased a Winchester or Remington either. I just don’t recommend Beretta and they told me to let you know that.


Far too many companies do not make things right.



That's really sad. A friend of mine bought an A300 at a Wounded Warrior's auction last year. Pretty gun but a jammomatic right out of the box, and he WAY overpaid for it. We all consider Beretta a "good manufacturer" right? That said it seems a decline in quality control seems to be that company's direction as well. Doesn't mean they don't make any good guns, it just means you better be careful and check out what you're buying because the name alone no longer ensures you're getting a quality firearm.

The consumer in this country has pushed for cheap over all else, and while these things are being much more efficiently produced, the finished products aren't as good as they were when you had craftsmen putting them together.

My gripes are not Remington and Marlin specific. Their quality stayed up there long after Colt, Smith and Wesson, and Winchester went cheap and quality control went out the door. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Remington or Marlin made in the 80's. I would only buy a Colt, Smith and Wesson, or Winchester from that era if it were cheap and after very close examination.

Came across a NIB Colt 70 series Government model 20 years ago that was made in the early 80's. Looked great in the hand, but under close inspection discovered the slide was drilled off center so the barrel rubbed on one side, and had a gap on the other.

A Smith and Wesson 27-2 of the same era had a barrel that was screwed in just a tad too far, canting the front sight off to the right. Again, NIB but flawed from the factory.

Those are the kinds of things I look for, and while there are always lemons getting out of the factories, the probability of such things goes up or down depending on the time period.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:03 am
Posts: 232
Jeepwm69 wrote:
I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap.


Therein lies the rub. I don't think anyone is arguing that the 11-87s are as nice as the 11-87 Premiers were. Or that an 870 Express is a nice as a '74 Wingmaster.

But the same could be said of any shotgun maker, as you acknowledge. If I only bought the cheapest Browning, it would be hard to ignore the quality difference between a new BPS and a Superposed. Or a Benelli Nova and a Montefeltro. Or a Beretta A300 and a A303.

I don't think the modern 1100s or Wingmasters have suffered a bit in terms of quality. And the V3 and Versamax are as good or better than any of their counterparts. Especially $ for $. And that's without stooping to cutting the cost for Americans to own their toys by exploiting Turkish or other 3rd world workers.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 205
S.davis wrote:
Jeepwm69 wrote:
I'm not buying anything new from Remington OR Marlin unless it's ridiculously cheap.


Therein lies the rub. I don't think anyone is arguing that the 11-87s are as nice as the 11-87 Premiers were. Or that an 870 Express is a nice as a '74 Wingmaster.

But the same could be said of any shotgun maker, as you acknowledge. If I only bought the cheapest Browning, it would be hard to ignore the quality difference between a new BPS and a Superposed. Or a Benelli Nova and a Montefeltro. Or a Beretta A300 and a A303.

I don't think the modern 1100s or Wingmasters have suffered a bit in terms of quality. And the V3 and Versamax are as good or better than any of their counterparts. Especially $ for $. And that's without stooping to cutting the cost for Americans to own their toys by exploiting Turkish or other 3rd world workers.



To clarify, the 11-87's I bought were originally about $600. That's chincy plastic stocks, uneven dull black finish, and an action that felt like it was full of sand.....

I bought the ones I did because they were marked down, mostly to $249 but one was $124.

The Remlin 1895 I bought was marked down from $587 to $299 and had a $50 rebate on it.

That's what I meant by "cheap". It needs to be cheap enough for me to go through the trouble to correct the flaws that seem to be inherent in the guns made by these companies nowadays.

So, if you want to find me a current production 1100 or Wingmaster at 50-75%+ off of retail, yeah I'd go for that, but unless I'm stripping the thing down and going over it with a magnifying glass I'm not a buyer of current production stuff at anywhere close to MSRP.

That's what I meant by "ridiculously cheap"


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:50 pm 
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Marlin Mike wrote:
I am going to buy my grandson a new 20 gauge auto this weekend.


You cannot buy a new American made 20 gauge autoloader anywhere, except from Remington. You cannot buy a 20 gauge autoloader with a written lifetime warranty anywhere . . . except from Remington.

You cannot buy a 20 gauge autoloader with a steel receiver anywhere except from Remington.

The Remington 1100 is the most successful autoloading shotgun in the history of the world, by no small margin.

Image

If you want cheap finishes, Remington offers them . . . as more and more consumers buy cheap rather than quality of blue, quality of finish, quality of polish, quality of walnut.

If you want quality, Remington makes it. It isn't the cheapest thing that goes bang and it isn't the "Express" or "Sportsman" line of economy finishes. It is your choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Location: Western Tampa, FL
I thought that the following "warning" was now applicable here.

Author Message
shotgunworld
Post subject: Please ReadPostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:28 pm
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:51 pm
Posts: 5160
Location: Decatur, AL
All,
This is a "I love My...." forum and not a bash Remington forum. You wouldn't drive your Ford Mustang to a Chevy Club 'meet' and talk about how great the Ford's are and how the Chevy's suck. If you don't like the Remington's then stay out of this forum. This is more like a Remington Club than a Remington Opinion forum, so I or a Mod will start deleting future posts that bash the Remingtons.
Regards,
Jay


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:11 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Dammit Randy, I was all set to buy a used Remington 1100 skeet gun for about $500-$600. Now I want to buy a new Remington American Classic 20 gauge for about $1000 more.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5870
You’ll be glad.....they are nice guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:14 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1327
OP a 20ga 1100 sporting just popped up in the for sale section here!


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 4230
Location: Western Tampa, FL
birdhunter39 wrote:
OP a 20ga 1100 sporting just popped up in the for sale section here!


And it is a beauty!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 205
oyeme wrote:
I thought that the following "warning" was now applicable here.

Author Message
shotgunworld
Post subject: Please ReadPostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:28 pm
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:51 pm
Posts: 5160
Location: Decatur, AL
All,
This is a "I love My...." forum and not a bash Remington forum. You wouldn't drive your Ford Mustang to a Chevy Club 'meet' and talk about how great the Ford's are and how the Chevy's suck. If you don't like the Remington's then stay out of this forum. This is more like a Remington Club than a Remington Opinion forum, so I or a Mod will start deleting future posts that bash the Remingtons.
Regards,
Jay


So when someone asks about "production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge" differing opinions are not allowed? I own them. I can't report back on the good and bad/ offer an honest opinion?

Got it. Kinda ruins the validity of a "forum" when nothing critical can be said.

I do like Remingtons. Almost every shotgun I own is a Remington. I'm just honest about the pros and cons of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Virginian wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the current offerings of either, except to the Remington haters.


There is a lot more truth to that than some would care to admit. It is probably time to review an 11-87 20 gauge Sportsman Field. https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... sman-field

Actually some have carped I bit that it wasn't included in various "Battle of the 20 Gauge" articles and videos. The reason was that, the 11-87 is substantially heavier than my type of spritely hunting 20s, that range from 6 to 6-1/2 lbs.

Nevertheless, for some clays use or on the dove field, a bit heavier gun is desirable. As there is perpetual interest in sub-$1000 autos, at a street price of $630 - $650, the 11-87 breaks no wallets. It is real walnut, no fake enhanced decal or dips, an alloy trigger guard . . . not plastic, and has essentially all-metal construction that is hard to find as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:45 am
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I’ve got a Classic 1100 and a Classic 870, both in 20ga. I’ve never had nicer shotguns, granted I’ve never had real high end shotguns but I do have older 1100s and 870s.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:01 pm 
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There are some reviews on Academy's website.

https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/reming ... ld-shotgun


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Posts: 2843
RandyWakeman wrote:
Virginian wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the current offerings of either, except to the Remington haters.


There is a lot more truth to that than some would care to admit. It is probably time to review an 11-87 20 gauge Sportsman Field. https://www.remington.com/shotguns/auto ... sman-field

Actually some have carped I bit that it wasn't included in various "Battle of the 20 Gauge" articles and videos. The reason was that, the 11-87 is substantially heavier than my type of spritely hunting 20s, that range from 6 to 6-1/2 lbs.

Nevertheless, for some clays use or on the dove field, a bit heavier gun is desirable. As there is perpetual interest in sub-$1000 autos, at a street price of $630 - $650, the 11-87 breaks no wallets. It is real walnut, no fake enhanced decal or dips, an alloy trigger guard . . . not plastic, and has essentially all-metal construction that is hard to find as well.



I`ve really come to appreciate this at this late stage of my shooting career. Well, better late than never! Just for me, I think my V3 walnut and 870, overall, are better pass shooting guns than my L4S. So much so that the addition of forward weight to my L4S has made it a much better clay and dove gun for me. In it`s "original " form, the L4S Hunter is definitely a point and shoot, flushing game gun.

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Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:56 am
Posts: 205
Perhaps the answer to this thread is "Could go either way"

As can be seen in this thread from a while back, things ebb and flow as far as quality and companies go.....

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/postin ... &p=2165070

Randy apparently had a bad experience with Beretta from a post earlier in this thread, but a while back in the linked thread above he responded to a similar question about the 11-87 with the following.....

My point being that one can have a preconceived notion of a brand, but that can be quickly changed with a bad experience, or confirmed with repeated good experience.

The best answer, in my opinion, to the original poster's question is "Depends on the particular gun. Look the specific firearm you intend to buy over very closely before you purchase it"

The reviews I linked to Academy's website will reinforce that notion.

RandyWakeman wrote:
trappertom wrote:
to read about the Remington 11-87 semi-auto. In the reviews section, there were bad ratings: some with broken barrels, stripped caps, jams, and ripped shells upon ejection. Are these true? Some owners have had trouble- free use. What's the deal?


If you think that the comments are all lies, you'll have to confront those that made them. Do you have some evidence to suggest that they are?

11-87's are not considered as reliable, as durable, or as well-made as Beretta and Browning autoloaders by most active shooters world-wide. They aren't as desirable for hunting, they are very small in number on the clays fields, and their market share declines every year as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:59 pm 
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McFarmer wrote:
I’ve got a Classic 1100 and a Classic 870, both in 20ga. I’ve never had nicer shotguns, granted I’ve never had real high end shotguns but I do have older 1100s and 870s.


The Remington 870 200th Anniversary Pump Shotgun is my favorite of the group, though the 870 Classic 20 gets more field time.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Jeep, this is just a curiosity question and in no way meant to be snarky, but is there any gun out there ( well, that`s in the price range of us peasants in the proletariat ) that you would not feel compelled to disassemble to the molecular level for evaluation prior to purchase :D ?

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Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


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 Post subject: Re: Current production quality of 1100/1187 20 gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:04 am
Posts: 2843
RandyWakeman wrote:
McFarmer wrote:
I’ve got a Classic 1100 and a Classic 870, both in 20ga. I’ve never had nicer shotguns, granted I’ve never had real high end shotguns but I do have older 1100s and 870s.


The Remington 870 200th Anniversary Pump Shotgun is my favorite of the group, though the 870 Classic 20 gets more field time.

Image

Image

Image

Image



Gee whiz, that`s a beautiful gun.



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Fabarm L4S Initial Hunter
Remington 870 Super Magnum Turkey
Remington V3 Walnut
Remington 870 Express (Realtree Xtra camo)


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