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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
Speaking in terms of value:

It is pointless to argue Apples vs Oranges. I don't think one size fits all, here.

It would be hard to argue that a used Gr I Superposed in excellent condition is one of the best 'values' today. Perhaps when the Citori first appeared on the market - the same was not true.

It all depends on what one 'values' in a gun. That's why there are differing opinions about the merits of each gun - they each appeal to different individual criteria. To each their own and I respect that.




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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:26 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Two high I agree on the advantages of the Citori over the Supers for the majority of sportsman as I said in an earlier post. The non removable for end as designed by John Browning has its merits in certain situations . Back bored and chrome chambers mean little to me but as you said must be important to some people.
Mechanically they are both sound , sturdy arms. What sets the Super apart for me is my appreciation of the hand fitting , hand engraving handbuilt stocks and finishes. There is a big difference ( for me) between carrying one of my 20 ga. Superposed behind the dogs and one of my Citoris. Which brings us to Anatidaes analogy , it’s all in what is important to you.
Anatidae, I will have to politely disagree with you on one point. Under certain circumstances ( ie. your hunting or shooting needs and/ or desires) a nice grade I super is still quite a value.
Thank you all for one of the best discussions on this subject in awhile. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:30 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
No one's arguing. We're just discussing. I would get a Superposed if it fit my needs, was in great condition, affordable and presented a good value. When I was in the market for a Skeet and Sporting Clays gun the Miroku/Browning shotguns fit that bill. I never thought I bought a lesser gun by going with a new Miroku Browning.

Personally, engraving means little to me. I actually like the look of a clean blued receiver. I wish my 725 had a polished blue plain receiver rather than the chain-link stuff, but obviously it was not a deal breaker. In my competition guns it's function over form. When I wanted to buy just a pretty gun, I bought a CSMC M21 O/U with a plain polished blued action and exhibition grade wood. I'm a sucker for a nice peace of walnut, metal scratching, not so much. But hey, that's why they make more than one shotgun as we all value different things and for different uses. That CSMC sees little use but I sure do like looking at it.


Last edited by twohigh on Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: DFW, TEXAS
I honestly forget sometimes I have a nice Grade I 16 Ga Citori in the safe. But I think often of my (several) Superposeds. They are just more prominent in my own system of value.

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:02 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
My dedicated target gun is a ‘93 GTI I bought new. That gun is used for SC , 5 stand , skeet , fitasc etc. I just had it rebuilt recently , debated buying a new target gun but in the end I just didn’t figure I could improve on that Citori.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:06 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Scotty , if that 16 ga ever seems to be in a spot where another Super belongs , let me know


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:11 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
captjsjr wrote:
My dedicated target gun is a ‘93 GTI I bought new. That gun is used for SC , 5 stand , skeet , fitasc etc. I just had it rebuilt recently , debated buying a new target gun but in the end I just didn’t figure I could improve on that Citori.


I have the Citori that superseded your GTI. I have an Ultra Sporter and it's still in good condition. Who rebuilt your GTI? There may come a time when I need one rebuilt. Actually my 1982 Citori Skeet gun is pretty close to needing a rebuild but I seldom use it anymore.

An early Citori story: It was back in late 1972 or early '73, when I was 16, I was at a skeet shoot outside Montreal. The club was having a raffle for the then new Citori skeet gun. I couldn't buy a ticket due to my age. I tried to get my father to buy a ticket for me but he refused. Didn't want me to waste my money. I can't remember the cost of the ticket but maybe $20. You could pick your number and 16 was still available. It was a raffle where the last ticket drawn won. This way it would come down to the last 2-3 people still in it and they could attempt to buy the other people's tickets. It was fun. Anyone want to guess what was the last ticket drawn? Yup. I was ticked-off at my Dad for weeks. It took me another 10 years to get my first Citori.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:51 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
woodcock1 wrote:
I know that at mid 40 I am a rare bird who likes, knows about and appreciates the superposed.
This is the most encouraging thing relative to interest in the Superposed I have read on this forum, lately.

woodcock1 wrote:
I am curious to see what everyone's opinion on the long term outlook for these guns. Is one going to hold value more than the other? Is one a better investment that the other. If it was your money to spend, would you purchase citori's in higher grades or would you purchase superposed guns?


I struggle with the hypothetical. Everybody's situation and motivation is different yet I am well-acquainted with trying to achieve and maintain a balance of income, growth and financial security in retirement with periodic reward or pleasure.

As I look back, I have no regrets about buying Superposed. I like FN engraving and guns with great provenance. There is a gun for everyone. I have sufficient reason to believe guns find the people that are most passionate about them. If a Superposed isn't in the cards for you right now - remain patient and save for that special example you hope to find, one day. It’s out there.

Example from 2015 – a 1953 Browning Gr III 'Calling Cock' variant. 'Craziest gun deal I've ever been involved in. I'd held-out on a buying a Gr III for several years waiting for the right one. I spotted an interesting ad one Sunday morning which read:
Quote:
Browning Gr III 12ga sn 36xxx 26.5” sk/sk 14-1/4” LOP hard rubber butt. Wood shows some light use/storage marks and remains free of cracks. Metal remains excellent showing only minor aging. Felix Funken engraved.

The photos were just good enough that I could tell it wasn't the usual Gr III scenes – and fortunately bad-enough that other buyers might think it was yet another clunker of a Gr III. I immediately sent an e-mail asking for first refusal, serial number, and photos of sides and bottom. I tried calling (even though it was Sunday), but no answer. I didn't sleep much that night.

Monday - I received photos of sides only, answers to my questions and they confirmed the gun was still available. It was NOT a standard Gr III subject matter and game scene, but it was definitely that 'unique' Gr III example I had been waiting for. We agreed on a negotiated price, I committed to buy, and requested a couple of days to get everything lined-up, get my wife's blessing and hear-back from the Browning Historian – he's not in on Mondays.

Tuesday - I sent Lenny a request and got my wife's blessing for the purchase. Then e-mailed the seller saying I definitely wanted the gun and it was NOT contingent on hearing back from Browning. In the same e-mail I asked for courtesy photos of muzzle, butt plate, choke markings, and serial number stamp in the trigger tang inlet (because of the exceptionally figured wood). I knew the checkering and finish looked 'period' and typical of Browning details, but I've seen TOO many 50's re-stocks with clever disguises and I just wanted to confirm a few details. I EVEN told them this was not a deal breaker, recommended the bit tip size to fit THAT screw slot, and if there was any chance of damaging the screws - not to fool with it. I ALSO requested their payment preferences so I could be getting things lined-up in the meantime. I forwarded them a copy of my FFL's license in a subsequent e-mail.

......So the first 'additional photo' was the 1950's Special Models Superposed catalog. I'm trying to figure-out why they sent that photo, but I just assumed it came with the gun - GREAT TIMING!.....I just bought a copy on GunBroker the previous week for $25 and the seller confirmed it's been mailed this day.

Second photo was choke markings M/F. The gun was advertised a SK/SK so I immediately thought the chokes have been opened-up. I was a bit disappointed and frustrated, but at least the serial number (even though faint) matched.

Third photo was choke markings SK/SK with matching serial number and a '2' underneath. It took a second or two, but my dim light-bulb came 'on'.......first indication that it was a 2-bbl set. I didn't notice the faint '1' on the first set of barrels.

Fourth photo was of both bbl sets and the fleece-lined leather case for an extra bbl set. Those are quite rare so I'm told.

So I email an acknowledgment, thanking them for the additional photos (and trying to figure out how to 'word' that I had no idea it was a 2-bbl set)......and I get another e-mail from them with more photos (including confirmation of the horn butt plate), acknowledging receipt of my FFL's license, saying I'll be happy with the gun, and itemizing all the selling features they had omitted to this point - that it comes with an extra set of barrels, a leather/fleece slip case, and original paperwork from FN written in French. I had YET to speak with anyone from the seller's over the phone. The e-mail also requested my address and phone number. I just responded with such, cut my e-mail short and thanked them for their trouble saying “Thank you - I'll send payment immediately”. All the time I thought it was a single set of barrels - I never questioned price nor condition because I had already agreed on price and condition (pending inspection).
Image

Inside the 1950's 'Special Models Superposed by Browning' catalog was an original 1953 Browning Superposed Price List, owners' manual, barrel proof certificates for each set (in the small beige envelope), an F.N. factory hang tag (production tag) with the client's name on it, and letters from brokering FN agent, invoice from the Sporting shop, and letters between liaison (business associate) and original owner. The gun was sold through Le Armurerie Liégeoise Au Perron Liègeoi, Charleroi, Belgium – invoiced June 25, 1953 (roughly 6-1/2 months before I entered this life).

Not all guns hold their value - but this one should. This gun was purchased for the current asking price of a used Citori Grade VII O/U Trap model. There just isn't a Citori engraving pattern that would appeal to me, at any price (other than Gr I).

So if you're frustrated with the same 'dud' guns on the market, be patient - you're still young. You'll know the right gun when it finds you - and when the timing is unmistakably right. Happy Hunting!


Last edited by Anatidae on Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:32 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 916
Wow, what a find. I am envious Anatidae.
My thoughts on the Superposed -
I think the RKLT Superposed 20 gauge IC/Mod is about perfect as an Upland gun.
I think that a Superposed 12 gauge Sk/Sk is still a desirable skeet gun, about as good as it gets.
A Superposed 12 gauge Broadway Trap is a pretty classy way to shoot recreational Trap, but a Browning Citori is a better choice for the really high volume shooter, either Trap or Skeet.
Ordinary 12 gauge Gr. 1 guns are going awful cheap around here, in average used condition.
Engraved, graded Superposed guns are pretty thin on the ground in Western Canada, so I don't get to see many, and those that do surface often have unattractive issues.
At my age, 72, I probably should be divesting some firearms, but a nice condition Superposed with the right features can still turn my head.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
Saskbooknut, You’ve just described my selection of Supers for my various endeavors. Omitting only a gr III that I use for SC and 5 stand. You are obviously a man of great perception. :lol:

Anatidae , What a great story and amazing acquisition. Certainly one of those bonuses life throws at you from time to time. Congratulations ! BTW , After rereading your earlier post about value of the gr.I , it appears that I may have misconstrued your meaning. I believe we may actually be on the same page. If this is the case please accept my apology. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:18 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: DFW, TEXAS
Anatidae, thanks for the great story, that made my Sunday morning and cup of coffee that much better.
For me it is the thrill of the chase in finding that old, special, unique or interesting Superposed. I'm sure Citori's will eventually gain their own "history" or significance, but for now, the Supers have cornered that market, at least for me.
Like my first Super, a Sept 1931 gun, that was custom ordered with double triggers, but in reverse firing order. That gun was eventually owned by the Chief Prosecutor of the Dachau War Crimes trial, and I have the provenance. It has a "C" in the serial number, French for "Chasse" or Hunting model.
I also was able to see it's serial number in the Browning Custom Shop logbook from 9 Sept 1931 when I visited there several years ago.

Or my Gr IV "Dogs and Foxes", double signed by Funken. Because it had been restocked, and not well I might add, I picked it up for a bargain. It has now been restocked "back to factory spec" with a period-correct Horn butt plate, with a wood blank of my choosing, and is gorgeous. I like to think I preserved the gun to it's original glory, even though it will always be a restock.

And perhaps my favorite story, of the simple Gr 1 I purchased from a gentleman who's father bought the gun brand new, and it came with the original case. Double triggers, 3 in chambers, a fantastic 1935 gun that has now had the wood refinished to it's original shine, since it was crazing and rubbed raw in some places.
And yes, I have a Citori in the back of the safe somewhere, too.

_________________
...911 calls the men that draw the white chalk lines...1911 determines who they draw the lines around...


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:11 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
'Captjsjr' - No apology necessary. I had to re-read that statement several times, myself. Otherwise, One of my wife's best friends gave her a pillow that says, "You can either agree with me, or be Wrong."

Thanks also to 'Saskbooknut'. 'NoDak Scotty' - it was my pleasure. Thanks, I enjoyed your interesting Superposed stories as well.

‘Twohigh’ I should’ve said ‘compare’ instead of argue. Thanks. Good comments.


Last edited by Anatidae on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:30 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:11 pm
Posts: 1018
NoDakScotty , Thank you for sharing your stories. The hunt and the acquisition are often as interesting as the gun. I’m also pleased that the ‘31 is in the hands of someone who knows what Dachau represents.
The “reverse” triggers is another interesting note in the Superposed story. It’s those little things that remind me how little I know about these guns.

Anatidae , I don’t always have to agree but if I keep my mouth shut at least I’ll never be wrong. ( I learned that from my wife)


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:12 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
There's a nice looking 1966 Lightning Super on here for sale. I was very tempted but I really don't have a need for it, but those "wants" will get ya in trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:19 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
Absolutely!

If I have to ask - “do I really want that”, and then have to reason, "why?"......I really have no business going after it.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:04 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Chelsea, Qc, Canada
Félicitations mon ami Anatidae, this is a very nice find and it is always a pleasure to read you post. I hope one day you will write a book.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:26 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
Bonjour mon ami, 'Gibier'. Merci pour vos commentaires de soutien et votre confiance en moi.

I hope I will learn enough to write a book one day. I cannot do it alone. Thanks to people like yourself I am receiving some help from some very interesting personalities abroad. I appreciate your continued interest, assistance and friendship.

I shared the story of the Gr III because the stories and people behind some of the Superposé tend to be as interesting as the guns, themselves. This is a great part of their mystique.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:04 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:27 pm
Posts: 922
For those considering the Superposed and have been led to believe their versatility is limited - I offer the following thoughts/options:

Steel shot incompatibility - There are non-toxic alternatives to steel. I know a couple of Superposed aficionados who hunt waterfowl with pre-war 'long-range' models with success and no ill affects. Non-tox alternatives to steel have been used in 'fixed-choke' classic doubles for years.

Choke tubes - My dedicated sporting clays gun is a 1953 Gr V 30" Trap model bored IM/M.

Image
When I bought it, I was looking for something suitable for 5-stand and sporting. I was also looking for several quality engraving examples in the FN style from the 1950's and early 60's. The Gr V satisfied both, although I don't know the fate of the original stock. It came with the English walnut FITASC-style parallel comb custom stock by Mike Yee when he worked for Bill McClure in the 90’s. I'm a sucker for nice wood. Life is short.
Image

I don't shoot registered NSCA events.....I just shoot for fun. My approach is - live by tight chokes / die by tight chokes. When there's a target (or presentation) that challenges my shooting ability (with tight chokes), there are a variety of load types (using specialty wads that either hold or open a pattern) that can effectively (in my case with IM/M) open the pattern a bit.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/12ga-Sporting-wads/products/658/
My thoughts are - this offers the shooter more versatility with ANY fixed-choke gun.

Another approach I use is establish the break point for a target (particularly true pairs) that is the optimum range for the tight choke I'm shooting. I may even shoot the pair backwards (like shooting doubles from skeet stations 1, 2, 6, & 7 - shooting the incoming target first). Also as with a quail that gets-up under your feet or a duck that is gliding-in, you don't have to shoot either one as quickly as you can get on target - wait until it gets to the optimum distance for whatever choke you're using to get the best coverage and pattern density for a clean kill or solid break.

Also, if some of your targets are suitable for SK or IC chokes......tighten-up and use a 7/8oz load to reduce recoil and muzzle jump for a smooth move to the 2nd target, or to reduce recoil fatigue in general. Nothing says you have to use 3-1/4 dram 1-1/8oz Super Sporting loads for everything. It should be obvious I'm not a proponent of the 'spray and pray' method.

I shot a round of 5-stand with a 27.5” FN straight-grip Game Gun (Superposed) after shooting my normal 30" IM/M FITASC set-up. The chokes on the Game Gun are ‘fixed’ LM/Cyl (.017"/.001") .......so I had to get a little creative with 'pairs' order, timing, loads, and shot set-up because some of the targets were 40+ yds.........same results......21x25.

So having choke tubes isn’t always a necessity, they just prove more convenient for experimentation - but more-often promote indecision and sloppy gun technique for the sake of 'score'.

I shoot casual trap, skeet, sporting clays, 5-stand, low-gun wobble trap from 20-24yds, SKWAP, Helice, and mourning doves with the Gr V 'fixed choke' gun that’s a year older than I am. We’re a good fit.

Also when I bought this gun, the forearm had been rendered 'detachable'. So, I had it converted back to 'non-detachable' - I prefer the more convenient 2-handed assembly/disassembly sequence than the 3-handed sequence required for detachable forearms.

O/U's for Waterfowling - I don't know what percentage of the waterfowling public nowadays actually uses O/U's for waterfowling. But I imagine it is very low.


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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:52 am 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:13 pm
Posts: 226
Location: Colorado Western Slope
All of my clays guns are "Browning/Mirokus" you simply cannot beat them for rugged reliability. Miroku builds fine guns and that's a fact. As a bonus, many are very attractive as well. My father-in law, who passed away years ago left behind a really nice 1949 (I think) mid-grade Super. I'd love to convince my brother-in law to give it up since it isn't used, but kept for the sentimentality factor..... darn it, but I understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Browning Citori or Superposed
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:00 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
Hopefully your brother in law knows how to properly store it; cleaning and checking on it periodically. I've seen guns put away for safe keeping, that aren't used turned into a rusted mess.




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