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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:30 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:56 pm
Posts: 207
I like Mark = oregunner's remark;
After my 62 years of hardcore clay shooting and bird-duck-goose-wabbit hunting, I have learned a lot but it's all condensed into a sum total of past, present, & future cliche's.

See the bird, shoot the bird!

For the longest time, I was enthralled, nay consumed with trying to perfect my loads, trying to perfect my shooting skills before I even got to the club so I kept shooting light-heartedly. Today I walk on the sunny side of the street because I don't shoot registered targets anymore.

In the past, I got very frustrated trying to break them all, be better than the rest, but it all came down to another well-known cliche'. If you're not having fun, why are you doing it?

If you're going to reload remember the rules, be consistent, be accurate, be safe!
If it is not a published formula by the powder manufacturer, don't mess with it!
PS: Concerning powder drop, avoid static electricity with your reloaders.




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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:13 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:04 pm
Posts: 858
Location: Eastern Ohio
In the past, I got very frustrated trying to break them all, be better than the rest, but it all came down to another well-known cliche'. If you're not having fun, why are you doing it?


That is why I quit playing golf. Now I get to break things and it makes me happy!

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Age just makes one old. Only the wise benefit from experience.
The definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
There is nothing common about good sense.


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:01 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 652
Scatergun71 wrote:
I like Mark = oregunner's remark;
After my 62 years of hardcore clay shooting and bird-duck-goose-wabbit hunting, I have learned a lot but it's all condensed into a sum total of past, present, & future cliche's.

See the bird, shoot the bird!

For the longest time, I was enthralled, nay consumed with trying to perfect my loads, trying to perfect my shooting skills before I even got to the club so I kept shooting light-heartedly. Today I walk on the sunny side of the street because I don't shoot registered targets anymore.

In the past, I got very frustrated trying to break them all, be better than the rest, but it all came down to another well-known cliche'. If you're not having fun, why are you doing it?

If you're going to reload remember the rules, be consistent, be accurate, be safe!
If it is not a published formula by the powder manufacturer, don't mess with it!
PS: Concerning powder drop, avoid static electricity with your reloaders.


We probably shot targets together or hunted close by each other during waterfowl
season but the love I have for just shooting (all these years) continues to run through
my veins . I guess it's all the friends I have met in different places , I wouldn't trade
them for anything as the laughter and friendly faces is just to dang hard to replace !

What ever I do , I do to win but even with a sub-par day it only takes a smile to
keep me going for another day .......Here's a :lol: for You as I hope it works ?


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:57 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:39 pm
Posts: 111
Location: WINCHESTER, VIRGINIA
Needless to say this thread is an education in it's self. :)

My 20 gauge stash of 20 gauge hulls consist of Win AA hulls, and a boatload of Active hulls that are in new, never fired condition both in 2 3/4 and 3". Not sure what I need the 3" for around here, but I got'em :) these Active hulls were almost free and being the tighwad I am I just couldn't turn them down. The ones I have loaded seem to be just fine. Yes, these were obtained years ago before they went under. A local dealer had them and just wanted them out of the store. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:28 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:40 pm
Posts: 139
My 12 year old son shoots in his Browning Citori CXS Micro:
- Rem GC hull (or AA or Rem. C&F)
- Winchester 209 primer
- 14.4 gr Alliant 20/28
- Claybuster CB 1075-20 wad
- 3/4 oz reclaimed shot

It's a great super clean load!

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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:39 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:17 pm
Posts: 524
Location: Kansas City, KS
My 12 year old appreciated the gun club 3/4 ounce with green dot and CB wads with win primers. He shoots a tri star semi and I was pleased to see it still cycles. In fact, it doesn't throw them very far so its easy to pick up. a small difference from the 1 ounce loads we were shooting but every bit helps.
also nice he enjoys reloading with dad.


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:58 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 1035
I'm still using 12gn of red Dot and promo in 20ga for both 3/4 and 7/8oz ....burns super clean and works great in the winter up here in NY

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"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:20 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:58 pm
Posts: 64
DuckManEvs wrote:
I'm still using 12gn of red Dot and promo in 20ga for both 3/4 and 7/8oz ....burns super clean and works great in the winter up here in NY
What hull and primer?


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:32 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 1035
Rem hulls...gunclubs, clay and field etc... cheddite primers

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"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:38 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 1035
With 12gn and 7/8oz they are soft shooting loads... velocities seem slower than factory 1200-1225fps loads but they break Clay's well on the skeet field

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"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:23 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:04 am
Posts: 22
I'd like to express my thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, it has been a great help in the search for a softer shooting load for the wife,,,,,.

Federal Top Guns
W209
14.0 grains Unique
CB-1078-20; zero wad pressure
1-28ga 5/16 fiber wad (in the shot cup); [11 grains]
Lee 3.4 CC dipper, #8; [316 grains]
perfect crimps
1100fps ~

Just short of 100% reliable cycling in the wifes SA, but very comfortable in our doubles.


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:33 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:18 pm
Posts: 3
Hello all,

I just posted a request for info on another page in this forum, but then I found this page which might be a better place for my question.

I am new to re-loading and have been driving around to different places and ordering stuff online, and this is what I ended up with:
2.75 Federal Plastic hulls, W209's, CB1075-20 wads, Universal powder, and #4 buckshot. I am hoping to put together a mellow 3/4 oz load for my 20 gauge. Is this even a good idea?

Any help of thoughts would be appreciated,
Thanks, Noke.


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:35 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 10:15 pm
Posts: 15
Noke wrote:
Hello all,

I just posted a request for info on another page in this forum, but then I found this page which might be a better place for my question.
I am new to re-loading and have been driving around to different places and ordering stuff online, and this is what I ended up with:
2.75 Federal Plastic hulls, W209's, CB1075-20 wads, Universal powder, and #4 buckshot. I am hoping to put together a mellow 3/4 oz load for my 20 gauge. Is this even a good idea?
Any help of thoughts would be appreciated,
Thanks, Noke.


Aloha !

Like " Noke " I also am new to reloading shotshells - have reloaded .38 and 9mm cases -

I have a Mossberg SA20 and would like to create loads in the ranges of 1/2 oz , 5/8 oz and 3/4 oz. in addition to the published load data available

Remington sells 2 3/4" rifled slugs at 1/2 oz with an 1800 FPS velocity , and also has a 5/8" oz. rifled slug also 2 3/4" at 1580 FPS , and Winchester sells 2 3/4" 3/4oz rifled slugs at 1600 FPS.

The components that I have are # 7.5, #9 chilled magnum shot and in the process of casting rifled slugs aka Forster . BPI's DGS and Thug Slug.

I have once-fired Rem Premier 2 3/4" STS hulls, new 3" Fiocchi hulls and Win209, CCI209, and CCI209M primers.

Wads are CB-1078-20, CB-1075-20 and Win WAA20.

Powder for shotshells is Hodgdon Universal and Longshot, I use Accurate #2 for the 9 and 38.

I read the posts by dave in az at the beginning of this thread and it was very informative -

However, I am actually looking for information that I can use to work up my own loads.

BPI's Advantages Manual and other info deals with Rio, Fiocchi and Cheditte hulls mostly.

Lyman 5th Edition begins at 7/8 oz loads for shot and slugs for the 20 ga -

Obviously because the major manufacturers are making and selling reduced recoil loads at higher speeds this can be done -

HOW does one go about working up reduced recoil loads in a SAFE MANNER ?

I also have chronograph but that does NOT give you any pressure readings -

I need to get pointed in the right direction here, guys !

Thanks in advance, Ed


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:51 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1142
ETN
1. Slugs vs. shot, totally separate data. You can't take a 3/4oz shot recipe and replace it with a 3/4oz slug--the friction and pressures are different. In every post I've seen from you, you are making your desired range of changes too broad. You CAN make a 5/8oz or 1/2oz load from a 3/4oz load, using shot. But you CAN'T just replace the shot with a slug.
2. I know you want to know why. It's too much to type... that's why there are books and books written on the subject and internal ballistics is a whole field of study. Just consider that pressure builds up due to the payload moving out of the chamber slower than the gas reaction is building pressure, until enough pressure is generated to overcome whatever is keeping the payload in place--be that inertia of accelerating the mass, or friction. Friction depends on surface are of the wad and the pressure all across that surface. It's not uniform pressure usually. Larger shot makes a taller column in the wad, more shot does the same, which makes more surface area of wad that is exerting outward force on the hull and generating friction drag. Some areas of the wad have higher pressures due to point contact of the pellets pressing, other areas have lower pressure but still some being distributed due to how stiff the wad is, how close the pellet points are, how much tension is being generated in the wad, etc. etc. The pellets are being compressed down into the wad as the whole payload accelerates out of the hull, so the hardness of the pellets becomes a factor as some high points in lead are crushed flat, pellet mass is crushed down giving less column height but more "wetted surface" inside the wad generating friction points... do they even out, or does one overcome the other? Who knows? It all happens in microseconds, and it all changes how fast the powder is burning in it's variable burn cycle--does a hard early burn with more generated friction lead to less pressure or a lighter early burn? Does one or the other make one of the 10 factors I just mentioned change enough to lower peak pressure? Does it work with every powder or just some? No one knows. No one can calculate it.
3. It comes down to a thousand possibilities, which can MOSTLY be generalized into a few rules. But all those rules are generalizations that work in small defined regimes, not across the whole loading spectrum, and no one is going to type out the 3 paragraphs of assumptions and where they are valid. So then YOU read one statement and think it applies everywhere, but it doesn't. Here they are:
-- You can take a recipe. You can keep that EXACT RECIPE but just reduce the shot down a bit, and you will be safe. Pressure will be less, speed will likely go up but not for sure depending on pressure.
-- You can take a recipe and reduce the POWDER, staying all else EXACTLY the same, and you will be safe and get less pressure.
-- You CAN'T do either of the above and mess with the payload! You can't replace #8 lead shot with a slug. You can't replace lead with tungsten, or steel, or bismuth. You can't put a 3/4oz slug in place of 3/4oz shot. What can you replace? Probably #8 lead shot with #5 to #11. Probably. Who knows. Most people likely do it. But when I've sent the exact same load 100% the same, except for #2 steel vs. #4 steel, I got higher pressures on the #2 steel by 800 psi, enough to invalidate the load and exceed SAAMI spec for 20ga. I absolutely would NOT replace BUCKSHOT into any load that wasn't explicitly stated it was for buckshot-- buckshot, birdshot, and slugs are all separate and the results can't be extrapolated to each other.

Here's some blogs I wrote on pretty much what you're asking. First one was a 28ga one, but everything I said applies to 20ga loads:
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/low-reco ... keet-load/

Here's one I wrote for 20ga 1/2 and 5/8oz loads:
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/low-reco ... 1-2-5-8oz/

Lastly, in order to "work up" a load, you need to study alll the datapoints, and make a reasonable educated guess at trends. Build your load, and send it in for testing. I like Precision Reloading for testing. I have every commercial steel load I'm aware of in a spreadsheet, and about every published 12/16/20/28/410 steel/bismuth/HW13/HW15/HW18 load I'm aware of. When I'm looking at a possible load, say a 2.75" 20ga steel load, I have 100 datapoints I'm looking at all sorted by 6 fields in various ways and plotted to see relationships. I make my best guess and send something in for testing. I'm doing steel subgauge so I'm always pushing up against max average pressure allowed to get a good duck load--I get a successful result less than 50% of the time. But I try to get the largest payload as fast as I can, and don't guess low, trying to get bounding data.


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:03 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 10:15 pm
Posts: 15
Dave in AZ wrote:
ETN
1. Slugs vs. shot, totally separate data. You can't take a 3/4oz shot recipe and replace it with a 3/4oz slug--the friction and pressures are different. In every post I've seen from you, you are making your desired range of changes too broad. You CAN make a 5/8oz or 1/2oz load from a 3/4oz load, using shot. But you CAN'T just replace the shot with a slug.

So then YOU read one statement and think it applies everywhere, but it doesn't. Here they are:
-- You can take a recipe. You can keep that EXACT RECIPE but just reduce the shot down a bit, and you will be safe. Pressure will be less, speed will likely go up but not for sure depending on pressure.
-- You can take a recipe and reduce the POWDER, staying all else EXACTLY the same, and you will be safe and get less pressure.
-- You CAN'T do either of the above and mess with the payload! You can't replace #8 lead shot with a slug. You can't replace lead with tungsten, or steel, or bismuth. You can't put a 3/4oz slug in place of 3/4oz shot.


Dave -

Thank You for taking the time to respond to my novice question(s) !

I believe with what information that you, Curly, oneounceload and a couple of others provided on the 3/4 ounce thread, I am pretty much more informed regards the reduction of recoil and how to achieve same w/out detrimental results to person and/or property.

Both threads address the payload with regards to lead shot - which as stated above I do believe you guys covered all the bases rather well.

In addition to lead shot - I am also interested in lead rifled slugs - be they the typical Forster type for the most part

Lyman 5th Edition has load data for these in 7/8 oz slugs

I have lead rifled slugs in 3/4 oz, 5/8 oz and 1/2 oz which are in factory loaded ammo which I can remove and make a mold to cast same.

These are the Remington SPHV20RS 1/2 oz and the Remington HPRS 5/8 oz.

And Winchester Super X 3/4 oz Rifled Slug Hollow Point.

I can also disassemble these shells and ascertain the component build up and get the powder charge weight - but the actual powder is an unknown factor - and then duplicate the wad column.

Here is MY question -

Using the Load Data for SLUGS in the 7/8 oz weight - can I reduce the slug weight to 3/4, 5/8 oz using the PUBLISHED Load Data for the 7/8 oz slug ?

In MY eyes - I see no difference than what was done to lead shot charge reduction !

However, like ' Ralphie ' - I do NOT want to ' shoot my eye out ' - NOR to be like Elmer Fudd and blow up the gun !

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: The 20 gauge 3/4 oz Thread of Justice
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:38 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 1142
Etn, I'm not familiar with lead slugs at all. If all we are talking about is a chunk of lead that fits inside of a wad, and you have a recipe for it say a cast column of lead, then yes you could just put a shorter column of lead inside the waD and it should be less pressure and safe.

However it is my impression that a lot of slugs are not just a column of lead, but have fluted edges or rifle ridges, or are attached to some sort of a bass wad in their manufacture. If the lead slugs are not the exact same but just a shorter column, then you will have issues based on all the things I discussed earlier. But yes, if I was stuffing a chunk of lead inside of a wad that was 7/8 Oz and had a good recipe for it, and I wouldn't have a problem taking a knife and slicing a part of the slug off so that it was a 3/4 ounce and using the same recipe. But again realize I've never loaded a slug in my life and I'm not an expert in it at in any way.Just




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