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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:03 pm 
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OldStuffer, I have about 15 lbs of Red Dot in the old cardboard "drum". Came from the estate of Doctor in Wallowa County that was a shooter in the 50's.60's. Unopened when I got it about 6 years ago.. odor good, color good, only indication of aged product was the red dots were a very faded pink. Did a little chronograph work with it and a new can I bought. 15 loads of each and results were so close you could not have identified which was which. Larry




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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
Hooty wrote:
Thank you for this information, I never considered the higher pressure for a more complete burn while I was researching components. As well, I did receive the compression Formed AA’s, but have some of the new AA grey hulls. Will start with the old style based on what you stated and have read before. Thank you both for your insight, have seen these other powders locally as well. Many thanks.

A lot of people do not consider it, often until they get into a Cold Weather problem or complain about "dirty burning", so don't feel bad about "ignoring it", especially when starting out.
There is a LOT of "stuff" in this hobby when starting out.

What Curley says is correct, Smokeless Gunpowder MUST HAVE a certain amount of back-pressure against it to burn properly, and shotshells are THE LOWEST cartridge pressure there is. Our loads need all the "help" they can get.
People "get away" with low-pressure loads a lot, when they are dressed in short sleeves in the sun sipping iced lemonade.
Shells that are sitting in the back of a pickup truck all day in between walking milo fields a foot deep in snow get testy and unstable when run at 7-8,000psi.
10-12,000psi, they work as reliably as gravity.

My "standard load" Dad & I loaded oodles of (and I still do) is that AACF hull, Winchester AA12 (white) wads (or clone), "0" Bar, #7-1/2 shot.
Any american 209 primer you can find.
It doesn't get ANY simpler.
Go have some fun hammering clays with it, or Doves, or Quail, Prairie Chicken, etc.
Fill 'em up and go have fun.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
llc wrote:
OldStuffer, I have about 15 lbs of Red Dot in the old cardboard "drum". Came from the estate of Doctor in Wallowa County that was a shooter in the 50's.60's. Unopened when I got it about 6 years ago.. odor good, color good, only indication of aged product was the red dots were a very faded pink. Did a little chronograph work with it and a new can I bought. 15 loads of each and results were so close you could not have identified which was which. Larry

Doesn't surprise me a bit.

People do all sorts of Hand Wringing and Gnashing Of Teeth over "lot to lot variation", primarily because of all the other people's Hand Wringing and Gnashing Of Teeth across the internet and not because of ANY volume of first-hand information they themselves have.

There isn't a single component of gunpowder that hasn't "changed" in the 140yrs or so since Smokeless was invented commercially, and MANY MANY gunpowder plants have burned down, moved, closed, sold, opened, closed, been bought and sold, etc, etc, etc.
Not a single gunpowder today, is "the same" as it was in the 1890's, the 1900's, the teens, 20's, the 40's, and on and on.

YET, the tolerances of those SAME gunpowders, released to us in Canister Grade, are so close to "The Originals" (many of which are over 100 years old now) that they are, for all practical purposes, "the same" as they ever were.
The "differences" are so small as to be undetectable without a full ballistics lab (which I do not have).

What is even more "complicating" is that SOME (not a lot of them) of the 150+ gunpowders for sale today ARE EXACTLY THE SAME as other gunpowders.
This is typically a case right now with Hodgdon gunpowders of which several ARE Hodgdon-named lots of the same Winchester and IMR powders.
They make one batch, label the canisters Winchester or IMR, they make the next batch, label the canisters Hodgdon.
Load data shows it, people have mailed/e-mailed Hodgdon and asked, and been confirmed.
The same thing happens "Down Under" where Hodgdon is manufacturing/having manufactured many of it's rifle powders by ADI, and ADI also sells canister-grade gunpowder.
ADI labels one batch for themselves, labels the next for Hodgdon, and so on.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:58 pm
Posts: 3
Location: Texas
Thanks as well on the information about the older MEC charge bars, I also got a 12 ga. 2 and was able to follow the information to find out was 1-1/8 oz. 23 grains of Green Dot. Thanks again for all the great experiences and insights.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:18 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
If one looks on The Internet, one can find the OLD (and I mean O.L.D.) MEC Charge BAR Chart (NOT to be confused with the Bushing Chart.

I actually have one (came with dad's 310 when he bought it new).

That chart lists multiple loads possible with each bar, there are/were A LOT of bars, separated by Gauge and Number.
The following are 12-gauge bars:
0H
0
0A
1
1B
1W
2
2B
2W
3
6
7
8B
8D
8G
8W
9
9A
9W
10
11
12
12W
13
13A
13W
14
14A
14W
15
16W.

The 0 Bar for instance throws:
18.5gr of Red or Green Dot,
21gr of PB,
20gr of 700X,
25.5gr of SR7625,
22gr of AA125-Grey B

All 3 "0" bars throw 1-1/8th ounces of shot, the 0H throws around 2.5gr less powder, the 0A throws around 1.5grains more powder, obviously, exactitude depends on which powder.

Bars sold for $3.50 apiece, and you could order a custom bar to suit your personal loading for the cost of $1 additional.

You had to know the bar gauge, the #2 10-gauge bar threw 2 oz. of lead.
The #2 12-gauge bar threw 1-1/8th (if I am reading the blurry .pdf right)
The #2 16ga bar threw 1 ounce.
the #2 20ga bar threw 7/8 oz.
The #2 28ga bar also threw 7/8oz, but it threw 1-gr less SR4756 than the 20-ga bar.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:32 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5152
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
I started loading shotgun shells in 1961 with a "Lee Loader" for my LC Smith 20 ga.. Then shortly after Pop bought a Herters, model 49 maybe, shotshell reloader. Pop believed in buying in quantity & I just finished the last keg of Red Dot he bought in the 60's a few years ago. Back then all hulls were paper & all wads were card & filler. It wasn't long until Remington came out with their plastic shells you could run through the washing machine & still shoot, as they advertised. Alcan had their gas seal plastic wad (PGS) & about that time Winchester came out with their compression formed hull. I still have that Lee Loader but had to stop using it when steel hull cases became the norm.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:16 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
When I fully took over Dad's Stuff, I still have some Federal Champion paper hulls, and 12-gauge fiber wads.
Those fibers are slowly being used up in Slug Load Development with BPI's AQ slugs.

I long ago shot up the Alcan Air Wedges (IIRC, and IF I long after figured out correctly what they were).

So dad started int hat "transitional" time as well, his MEC 310 uses a sleeve around the hull for support of the papers and everything (almost all die functions) index off that sleeve, the wad guide and the final crimper.
It really shows it's lineage to the ACME (predecessor) that I was given as a RustedSolid Project.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5152
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Not that it is better or "right", just because I do it or anything but due to the fact that I reload multiple sizes & types of shot, I mostly use adjustable bars & set them with a scale. I also still use my old Lee shot measure & check it against the scale. Some loads using Hevi Shot & Steel powder dictate weighing the powder & shot for every load but I don't get to shoot 500 ducks in a day. The good news is they kill better than lead ever did!


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
Posts: 5707
Similar thread for new skeet reloaders -

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... t&start=20


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:52 pm
Posts: 1
As you can see I'm an extremely new guy here. So, this is what has brought me to this thread. I am looking into reloading for my .410 semi-auto. As I look at the offerings MEC has, their single stages have 2 crimp stations and their progressives have 3 crimp stations. Where I'm hung up with this is, for my semi-auto do I need the 3rd station that taper crimps or does the single stage 2 crimp press work just as well? I lean toward the single stage but I would like to hear from those of you who have had actual experience before I commit. For right now I don't want to get into what kind of volume I plan on reloading, that kind of stuff. Once I get my question answered all the other factors will fall into place for me. I don't want to buy a press and find out that it wasn't the right choice.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
I've shot a CRAPTON of 12-gauge shells through semi-autos (unlike most of the crowd here, the first, second, third, AND 4th shotguns I'll reach for, are Self-Shuckers), WITHOUT the "taper-lock" die that MEC has the ability to put (due to station numbers) on their progressive presses.

Also, the "newer" camming crimp die that MEC developed decades ago with the 600Jr press sort-of does a semi-taper-crimp, when properly adjusted it does not leave a "mushroom top", my MEC 310 (dad's) does sometimes depending on the hull and what I stuffed it with.

Those said, NONE of my work is with .410, and ANY mushroom topping is a far larger % of diameter to the hull and might give chambering issues.

Still, IMO the most important (because the MEC die does a good job) I would rule the decision to go single stage or progressive on the amount of shells you figure to need every month.
400 shells takes me about 5-6 hrs to make on a MEC single stage (I've tried like heck, I can't do a box in 9 minutes, not even CLOSE (15 is my best)), it takes me an hour or so to load that on my Grabber.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:04 am
Posts: 21
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
When I fully took over Dad's Stuff, I still have some Federal Champion paper hulls, and 12-gauge fiber wads.
Those fibers are slowly being used up in Slug Load Development with BPI's AQ slugs.

I long ago shot up the Alcan Air Wedges (IIRC, and IF I long after figured out correctly what they were).

So dad started int hat "transitional" time as well, his MEC 310 uses a sleeve around the hull for support of the papers and everything (almost all die functions) index off that sleeve, the wad guide and the final crimper.
It really shows it's lineage to the ACME (predecessor) that I was given as a RustedSolid Project.


I have a 250 with 12GA 0 bar that will be going to a good young man for his family to load on, and did a couple of boxes of '80's vintage AA's on it yesterday. I had meant to load one or two just to make sure everything was good, but you know how it is,,,,,

Rich


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Last edited by Hamish2 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:57 am
Posts: 129
Just wanted to add my thanks to some of the advice here, and in some other threads. Loaded metallic before, but am new to shotshell reloading. I watched a buddy with his MEC 600 and 9000, and (probably only advice I deviated from here) went straight to the progressive just based on my weekly/monthly consumption. I'm still "fine tuning" for the two hulls (AA and Rem GC) but have loaded (and fired) a couple hundred within a couple days of setting the MEC up. Some of the things that mistakes have reinforced in my mind:

1) Watch for the primer drop.
2) If pulling the handle has any unexpected resistance, stop.
3) As the last shell moves from station 2 to 3, watch to see the bar lock.
4) The first time there is no shell in station 1, disengage the primer tray.
5) Don't forget the wad on the last couple shells - stupid!

I also made a variation on the "mount on a cookie sheet" idea. I read that for some people, the shot bounces off the cookie sheet. I had some spare upholstery material, so I just used that and fenced it with some trim. Bored a hole and mounted a spent primer catcher underneath, and all seems to work well.
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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:54 am
Posts: 24
Good advise, I wished I would of join the forum before I purchased my equipment and other components. I did purchase the Lyman shotgun reloading book. A great book for a beginner. I was lucky on picking my loads recipes. I got 2lbs of Imr green dot powder, some windjammer wads and some chedidite primers. I also bought some AA hauls because I remember they were good hauls. Any way I read your post two times, good stuff for a new guy to learn. So many loads to pick from. Such a great hobby. Thanks for posting.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 11:06 pm
Posts: 1
I'm new to reloading, and I shoot and a local range that allows Shotguns only using slugs.
I want to know if I can reload a Federal Game load shell with 7/8 key slug safety?
Greatly appreciated any advice on this.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 12:25 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
Posts: 6069
Location: Newton Kansas
Yes, just find data for it.

Ballistic Products, Lyman manuals, likely other places.

You need a powder charge for choosing desired pressure and velocity (preferably velocity at maximum pressure area), the basic wad stack to make it fit, some loads are fold crimped, some are roll crimped, cu the petals off and roll crimp the remainder, usually with an over-slug card but not always.

_________________
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is hunting season, and I carry a Browning. Stay hungry my friends.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:30 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:24 pm
Posts: 277
Location: Moses Lake, WA
dogchaser37 wrote:
I see a lot of folks get into reloading and take a more difficult route than they need to.

I like the K.I.S.S. approach and even though I have been reloading since 1974, I still follow my own advice. Especially when it comes to target loads.

From my POV, while there is nothing wrong with experimenting or using different hulls, wads and powders, that usually leads to wad column (stack height) issues which forces the person reloading to make adjustments. While I am all for adjusting machines, I also think putting that off at least until you get the first 1,000 good solid rounds under your belt, ain't a bad idea.

What I am going to propose will set some folks off because they just know they have the world's best reloads. Maybe, maybe not.

FIRST THINGS FIRST.

DO NOT BUY ANY COMPONENTS UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT COMPONENTS YOU NEED.

BUY THE LYMAN 5th EDITION SHOTSHELL MANUAL. THE HOW TO SECTION IS INVALUABLE TO A NEW RELOADER.

USE DATA FROM THE POWDER MANUFACTURERS or THE LYMAN MANUAL. ( I know there is crap posted here about bad data, but no one has ever proven that much of it is incorrect. More speculation than positive truth. STAY AWAY FROM BPI DATA, MOSTLY BECAUSE THEIR WAD COLUMN HEIGHTS AREN'T ALWAYS CORRECT and THEY HAVE YOU BUYING STUFF YOU DON"T NEED.)

Reloading target loads goes like this....Deprime/Resize, Reprime, drop powder, insert wad and seat wad on top of powder, drop shot, precrimp, final crimp,(taper crimp on some progressive machines). If you are doing any more than that something is wrong!! No cards, no Cheerios, no beans, no Motor Mica, NO ANYTHING ELSE. Reloading is simple do not make it difficult.

1) Decide what you are looking for in a load. That means payload and velocity. To keep things simple 12 gauge 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz., 20 gauge 7/8 oz., 28 gauge 3/4 oz., .410 1/2 oz. (I KNOW I KNOW, recoil/my favorite/blah blah). Try keeping with the loads that are typical target loads from the manufacturers. You can mess around once you understand what is going on and standard target loads have broken many untold millions, if not billions or trillions of targets.

2) Velocity -. with lead shot, it doesn't take 1,500 FPS to break a target. 1,150 FPS to 1,250 FPS is all you need. Again if you want more or less, that is down the road. You might want a bit more from the .410.

3) Find a good reloadable hull.... Remington Gun Club/STS/Nitro or Winchester AA or Federal Gold Medal or Grand. I think 12 gauge in all 3 hulls are good. Remington has solid 12 & 20 gauge hulls. I think that Winchester gets the nod for 28 & .410. There are many other hulls but then you start playing with all kinds of wads and adjustments.

4) Primers, do yourself a favor and buy Winchester 209's or Federal 209A's. Again there are all kinds of primers, but those two primers will do everything you will ever need for target loads, in the hulls mentioned.

5) Powders, holy crap batman are there a lot of powders. 12 gauge - Red Dot, e3, Clays, Clay Dot, 700-X. 20 gauge - Unique, 20/28, Universal. 28 gauge 20/28, Unique, Universal .410 - 410, 110/296, Lil' Gun

There are plenty of other powders and some really good ones that I did not mention, the issue will be density which will affect wad column height, wad selection and adjustments.

6) Wads, I specifically recommend that you stick with the hull brand for wad selection. Either the OEM wad which can be expensive or the exact clone of that OEM wad. I continue to use both OEM and clone wads. Claybuster probably has more exact clone wads than any other aftermarket wad maker. Claybuster also has some very good prices.....yes there are plenty of other wads to use, but for the new reloader you aren't going to know what works and what doesn't. That will lead you to adjustments. Wads are pretty much wads, do not get wrapped around the axel over wads.

7) Shot - #9's for skeet, #8's or #7 1/2's for Sporting. Eagle shot is decent stuff. Lawrence or West Coast is generally better as far as hardness goes. For the first 1000, Eagle will be just fine and it is cheaper. I would never buy anything but magnum shot but, that is another discussion for another thread.

Once you get comfortable with the reloading process, by all means experiment with different components and adjustments. Adjustments can always be reversed.

I have done the whole gambit and when I really need to have good solid reloads I end up back with the above. My 12 gauge reloads come right off the Hodgdon website. Federal hulls, primers and wad/clone wads or Winchester hulls, primers and wad/clone wads. I do use Remington hulls now and then but I don't get enough of them to use regularly, but I believe them to be the most reloadable hull at the present time.

I shoot year round in all types of weather and temperatures. I haven't had a bad load in well over 20+ years, which was caused by my own stupidity.

Which leads me to......reloads should not be any less reliable than factory ammunition. If you are getting off sounding or misfires or you need to carry a device to remove stuck wads from the bore, you are doing something wrong.

For the first 1000 reloads I would not be in a hurry to buy bulk anything unless you are really positive of what you want.

Happy reloading and K.I.S.S........why because it will be Happy Reloading.



How come you didn't give me advice back when I started shotgun reloading in 1966? :shock: There's a lot of good stuff in Mark's thread. When I started, my dad and I had three different powders and a bunch of fiber wads for loading.... along with the new Winchester plastic wad.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2020 12:10 pm 
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billwnr,

Would you have wanted reloading advice from a 10 year old, in 1966? :mrgreen:


{hs#

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Mark

aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 4:26 pm
Posts: 5
Location: CA Socal
Howdy! I'm new to reloading shotshells and found this site. One thing I would like to say is someone needs to change the language selection on sign up... WE declared our Independence 243+ years ago and we don't speak "British English"! LOL

Anyway this is a great site and a awesome thread! Thank you to everyone who is helping out newb's like me. I hope to pass it along!

Ron


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Go to the user control panel and make another choice then.
If you are going to need help, why start off with complaints already?????



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