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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:05 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 120
In simple terms:
The most important part of wing shooting is a consistent motion mount. Depending on range and angle swing through, pull away, or sustained lead may be used. Generally for me though the sight picture is seen as the gun comes up. That is pretty close to where I mount the shotgun. The second bird of a double is most often swing through for me.
Willie




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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:27 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Willie T,

I take it sir that you are not a Grouse gunner from your description of your sight picture. When hunting Grouse your sight picture may change 2 or 3 times as you gun the Grouse as the bird flies thru the forest, instantly putting trees or other foliage between itself and the predator/gunner. Muscle memory and quickly mounting your gun properly while never taking your eyes off the bird are seriously important when Grouse gunning. In fact when done properly a Grouse hunter will have his dog retrieving the Grouse before he realizes that he has even gunned the bird. Setting up to gun the bird properly, a smooth gun mount while using the thumb safe, and never taking your eyes off the flying Grouse, along with never stopping the gun swing until the bird falls is a learned experience. The longer most men Grouse hunt the better they become at it. Young Grouse hunters who aim at the birds, shoot very few Grouse.

When shooting doubles, always concentrate on shooting the 1st bird, the 2nd birds should be totally instinctive gunning, even if the bird is flying in a completely different direction.

The other important lesson is to always trust your Grouse Dog. The dog is the hunter, you are the gunner.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:19 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:56 pm
Posts: 120
Pine Creek Dave,
I think you may have mistaken me for someone else. I’m quite capable of describing how I wing shoot. I’m also well versed at wing shooting in heavy cover.
These pics are from this week.
Attachment:
78428715-EA3E-4686-B3AC-70D9D3E9482E.png

Attachment:
89BE7B39-FF69-47C0-B78C-2AD6F470CA95.jpeg

Shooting was 3 for 3 and included a double.

In the circle of those I bird hunt with unsolicited advice regarding ones wing shooting is considered poor form.

Willie T


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:02 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Willie T,

I gave you no advise, I simply answered your post. Glad you had a nice hunt.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

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L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:21 pm 
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Pine Creek/Dave wrote:
Willie T,

I take it sir that you are not a Grouse gunner from your description of your sight picture. When hunting Grouse your sight picture may change 2 or 3 times as you gun the Grouse as the bird flies thru the forest, instantly putting trees or other foliage between itself and the predator/gunner. Muscle memory and quickly mounting your gun properly while never taking your eyes off the bird are seriously important when Grouse gunning. In fact when done properly a Grouse hunter will have his dog retrieving the Grouse before he realizes that he has even gunned the bird. Setting up to gun the bird properly, a smooth gun mount while using the thumb safe, and never taking your eyes off the flying Grouse, along with never stopping the gun swing until the bird falls is a learned experience. The longer most men Grouse hunt the better they become at it. Young Grouse hunters who aim at the birds, shoot very few Grouse.

When shooting doubles, always concentrate on shooting the 1st bird, the 2nd birds should be totally instinctive gunning, even if the bird is flying in a completely different direction.

The other important lesson is to always trust your Grouse Dog. The dog is the hunter, you are the gunner.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man It's



Grouse Grouse Grouse! Grouse guns, Grouse dogs! Grouse gunners! It's tiring. Much of that is true of all bird shooting, and ALL of it is true for bobwhites in the south, including heavy cover and trees trees trees. If your dogs are retrieving the bird before I realize I've shot it, they're not steady to wing and shot. To each his own I suppose.

No doubt grouse hunting is a great way to spend a day with your dogs. So is every other type of upland hunting - pheasant, quail, and chukars. Hells bells, even waterfowl hunting with a great dog fills that space in our hearts. Come south some time and hunt bobwhites in the pine woods.

Your post reads like condescending unsolicited advice.

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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:18 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
jer901,

Having hunted more than a few wild Texas Quail I have no problem with Quail hunting. Never meant to be condescending, however Grouse hunting is not like hunting Wild Quail, the methods are definitely different. We were talking about wild bird shooting methods, Grouse are wild birds. If it's tiring for you stop participating in the thread.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

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L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:30 am 
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Exactly the type of response I expected. It's not the thread that is tiring.

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USAF 1970-1990 (Ret)
Texas A&M '69
Gig 'Em Aggies!
Boosting the numbers with every post

What happens at Alger Flats stays at Alger Flats!


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:09 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
jer901,

Glad you find me tiring, maybe I should have been condescending with it.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:46 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
If you require of yourself to be defined by the pursuit of a gamebird then there is little option but to make said gamebird pursuit be the toughest in every measure...it's called ego.
Ego tho requires an ever-increasing and healthy dose of exaggeration at each telling and that, soon stretches the belief of the audience to a breaking point.

In truth, hunting and swatting bobwhites or pheasants or ruffed grouse or whatever can all be deucedly easy amongst days of difficulty.
Rating any choice as best says most about the swatter and little about the swatee.

Wingshooting, to me, is not about the correct move of a shotgun...it is about the finishing note of a song.


Last edited by Multiflora on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:53 am 
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Multiflora wrote:
If you require of yourself to be defined by the pursuit of a gamebird then there is little option but to make said gamebird pursuit be the toughest in every measure...it's called ego.
Ego tho requires an ever-increasing and healthy dose of exaggeration at each telling and that, soon stretches the belief of the audience to a breaking point.

In truth, hunting and swatting bobwhites or pheasants or ruffed grouse or whatever can all be deucedly easy amongst days of difficulty.
Rating any choice as best says most about the swatter and little about the swatee.

Wingshooting, to me, is not about the correct move of a shotgun...it is about the the finishing note of song.


Ever the poet. I like it. {hs#

_________________
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USAF 1970-1990 (Ret)
Texas A&M '69
Gig 'Em Aggies!
Boosting the numbers with every post

What happens at Alger Flats stays at Alger Flats!


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:31 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Gentlemen,

One of the most important factors in wild bird gunning is to focus on the bird, not your gun barrels, properly mount your gun and squeeze the trigger, never stop moving your gun until the bird falls.

Wild bird gunning is not like shooting clays, wild birds change directions quickly, especially Grouse and Woodcock, concentrate on the bird.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

_________________
L.C. Smith Man
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
Charlton Heston NRA Speakers Bureau Member
NRA Life Member/NRA Instructor


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:32 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 97
When I posted this question back in December it was nearing the end of my first full season of wild pheasant hunting. I didn't put all this in the initial post, but I had missed a good share of birds by this point. At least where public land hunting in MN is concerned. I wound up flushing around 12 shootable roosters. Some of these were close shots, others were long. In Brown county I paused to zipper my vest and a cock exploded out of the grass, I took two shots and missed, then went to grab 2 shells and reload, his brother flushed out of the same grass patch and I was caught with a shell in my hand, shoving it up the magazine when I should have had the gun on my cheek :roll: . Thanksgiving day I took the dog to a new WMA on the way to my aunt's, we caught a rooster out in a plowed field running right into the WMA grass. We snuck up to him, and after letting the dog sniff through the grass, I paused, she paused, and the rooster flushed to my right on the edge of the open field and flew right over my head. Probably could have hit him with a tennis racket. 2 shells spent in vain. Needless to say by Jan. 1 I was ready to put bird hunting behind me. Now I've just finished reading the orvis wingshooting handbook and am looking forward to the fall. I've also ordered a pile of other books, Churchills game shooting, taking more birds Dan Carlisle, etc. etc. I'm also going to spend a lot of trigger time the next 5 months, hopefully send 5,000 or more shells through the tubes at the clay range. And I've a buddy with an old barn full of pigeons that I hope to thin out too. I enjoyed pheasant hunting so much last year. I know I'm not a natural shot, but am hoping that with practice I'll at least become an average field shot. I've been practicing gun mount every day trying to build up muscle memory. On one hand I wish someone had taken me bird hunting as a kid, but on the other hand, learning as a middle aged guy is still fun. I hunted with my uncle one day, and his lab flushed a bird that crossed r to l in front of me at close range and I tried maintain and missed in front. At least that's what he told me, and he's hunted since he was a young buck. Sorry if I rambled a bit on reply. I really hope I get that rooster this year, I promise if I do, tears of joy are going to run unabashedly down my cheeks.


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:42 am 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 1901
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
It would have been helpful to have included this in your original post. I think you are rushing the shot and more focused on mounting the gun and getting the shot off quickly than focused on the bird. I still do this occasionally when a bird flushes a bit unexpected. You think you don’t have time, and shoot quickly where the bird was instead of where it’s going to.

Case in point, I was at a game farm and my dog flushed a bird a bit too far out and I debated for a micro second should I shoot and reward bad behavior (not hunting in range) or let $20 fly away. Economics won out, and I dropped the long bird with one shot because I watched it and mounted to the line while debating.

But that same season I missed a gimme on public land cause my flushing dog was “watching” a clump of grass with his tail wagging. The week before it was a raccoon that I dispatched when he did the same thing right in the same area. So when a rooster exploded out over my left shoulder going behind my back, I whirled and rattled off two quick misses because I was shooting where the bird was instead of where it was going. The unexpected flush made me think the bird was getting away when I really had plenty of time if I had focused on the bird and then mounted to the line.

Anyway, low gun skeet with a 0-3 second delay is great practice for pheasants. You get the experience of mounting to the bird and because your buddy can launch the target immediately or wait up to three seconds you never know exactly when you will get the target so have to stay focused for when the target will appear and you can begin mounting the gun.

Good luck this season!


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:27 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2490
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
Congratulations to the OP on learning. {hs# Dogs and birds are the best instructors.

1) Watch and read the dog.....he is your boss and better, in many ways
2) Pheasants, as will many game birds, get nervous.....especially when the noise and clatter they have been following...stops.
Class room 101.
Make haste thru a field slowly, haltingly and never in a straight line.....it should seldom be a race to a fence line or equivalent.

As well, we with a scattergun are always quicker than a bird..the odds, be with us.
Thankfully, those odds are often proved wrong but, generally, we win with mass opportunity.
Hopefully, no one wishes to shoot 'em all.....or wound 'em.
Make haste slowly....and wisely.

So, to me, success on a tailgate is more about dogs, hunting wisely and our decisions of when to shoot..and, most importantly, when not to shoot.

IF, you shoot with super speed, you lose advantage...in choke, often in mount and, mostly, in confidence.
The later is the great killer if killing is the prime point in a day or season.
This applies in alders or short grass.

Our first bird is often overthought.
Relax, accept being there for more than killing that first and realize who has the advantage.
Soon....you will make steps forward.

I would say that any skeet helps as choke will be seen as important, time will appear on your side and familiarization with the scattergun will pay dividends.
I personally would avoid SCs as entering far more into the mind than necessary....at this stage and purpose.
Good luck....Grin....and keep your head on the stock....I suspect you were lifting your head thru both the enabler of speed and in the wonder of the event.


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:42 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:42 pm
Posts: 2086
Location: Minnesota
Life of Riley wrote:
When I posted this question back in December it was nearing the end of my first full season of wild pheasant hunting. I didn't put all this in the initial post, but I had missed a good share of birds by this point. At least where public land hunting in MN is concerned. I wound up flushing around 12 shootable roosters. Some of these were close shots, others were long. In Brown county I paused to zipper my vest and a cock exploded out of the grass, I took two shots and missed, then went to grab 2 shells and reload, his brother flushed out of the same grass patch and I was caught with a shell in my hand, shoving it up the magazine when I should have had the gun on my cheek :roll: . Thanksgiving day I took the dog to a new WMA on the way to my aunt's, we caught a rooster out in a plowed field running right into the WMA grass. We snuck up to him, and after letting the dog sniff through the grass, I paused, she paused, and the rooster flushed to my right on the edge of the open field and flew right over my head. Probably could have hit him with a tennis racket. 2 shells spent in vain. Needless to say by Jan. 1 I was ready to put bird hunting behind me. Now I've just finished reading the orvis wingshooting handbook and am looking forward to the fall. I've also ordered a pile of other books, Churchills game shooting, taking more birds Dan Carlisle, etc. etc. I'm also going to spend a lot of trigger time the next 5 months, hopefully send 5,000 or more shells through the tubes at the clay range. And I've a buddy with an old barn full of pigeons that I hope to thin out too. I enjoyed pheasant hunting so much last year. I know I'm not a natural shot, but am hoping that with practice I'll at least become an average field shot. I've been practicing gun mount every day trying to build up muscle memory. On one hand I wish someone had taken me bird hunting as a kid, but on the other hand, learning as a middle aged guy is still fun. I hunted with my uncle one day, and his lab flushed a bird that crossed r to l in front of me at close range and I tried maintain and missed in front. At least that's what he told me, and he's hunted since he was a young buck. Sorry if I rambled a bit on reply. I really hope I get that rooster this year, I promise if I do, tears of joy are going to run unabashedly down my cheeks.


I can certainly relate to a rooster busting at the most inopportune time. In those cases there's not much you can do other than wave to him as he flies away. :D

Probably the most common reasons why we miss on a bird that startles you on flushing are foot position and as others have said rushing the shot. A bird that is pointed or one that a flushing dog is actively working is quite different than a wild flush that just pops up from no where. If your feet are all wrong your body can't swing or move properly to make an efficient move to the bird. Stepping into the flight line of the bird with your lead foot ensures that your body is in balance and can freely swing without being all bound up.

Rushing the shot means your eyes have not yet connected visually with the bird. On close shots you could employ the 3 second rule which does a couple things. It allows you to get your feet right and it allows you to visually connect with the bird with your eyes. The eyes supply all the information to the brain on speed and direction. Focus on the head if possible, even pick out detail if you can. The white ring on the neck, the red cheek patch or even the eye and or beak if real close. The more detail you can pick up means your focusing hard. On longer shots you can also use the head. Going away shots there's not much to look at other than his back side but visual focus should be no different.

Practice at a skeet field as others have said or where ever you can set up a scenario where your buddy can launch clays at his discretion NOT yours. Then work on foot position (stepping into the shot) and acquiring the bird visually, all the while maintaining focus thru the shot. Repetition is the key and eventually it will become second nature.

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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:11 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5292
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
"Too much thinking on how to make the shot, you will miss it everytime". Ask me how I know! Everybodies Dad was the best shot in the world, right? Pop wasn't the best shot in the world but he was one of the best. He was a natural athlete that grew up in the heart of Bobwhite country where they hunted quail everyday of the season. Not so much for sport but for something to eat! It didn't matter what it was, if it was shooting, he was good at it. His marksmanship badge in the army had so many trinkets on it, it was too heavy to wear on his uniform. He would describe in detail how he would lead each type of bird. He thought he knew but I don't think he did, he just did it! I once rescued a guy that was drowning. If I had pondered all the things that flashed through my mind in a couple seconds, he would have drowned for sure. When a bird flushes, a lot of things flash through your brain in a fraction of a second. Everytime you shoot, especially if you hit a bird, it registers in your brain's memory bank. The more you shoot, the more you have in your mental computer. Proper shooting form is a great place to start. Shooting fast flushing game is far different than pass shooting geese. Shooting quail or any fast flushing bird in heavy cover, you barely have time to shoot, no time to think about anything! I have read about the English methods of shooting & they no doubt work very well. Whatever method you use, it has to be instinctive. When you shoot, you are on autopilot. I don't know that I have a method. It depends on what I am shooting. I must be doing something right, because my batting average is very good but I missed a lot of birds getting here. The best advice is relax, be yourself & don't try to prove anything. Should you miss, don't worry about it. Learn from it but don't analyze it or think about it too much. It will automatically register in your subconscious memory bank!


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:37 am 
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Location: Louisiana
Excellent advice, geo, to which I would add: shoot skeet. Lots of skeet. Preferably low gun skeet. Shoot pre-mounted first, if necessary, to learn the different angles, leads, etc. Then, become reasonably proficient at low gun skeet and you will kill birds.


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:41 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:16 am
Posts: 969
All really good advice here. I'll just add that it's easy to fall into the trap of spot shooting those big ol' roosters at close range. Keep the barrel(s) moving.

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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:41 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 97
Patently Obvious wrote:
It would have been helpful to have included this in your original post.


At the time of my original post I already suffered from paralysis by analysis. I was only looking for a specific shooting method. I had consumed every type of wingshooting media I could get hold of. That said, the posts here have been helpful. All I can hope for is that my experience added with knowledge gained through reading can help me along. I have started to shoot a lot of clays the last few weeks and will continue with anticipation of the bird season coming in 4+ months in my neck of the woods. I've been shooting only SC recently, because that's what is available to me, going almost exclusively low gun. I shoot live birds every chance I get, but in this day and age it is rare where I live. I will try skeet if I ever get the chance. Thanks everyone for the tips. Fingers crossed.


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 Post subject: Re: wild bird shooting method
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:51 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5292
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Bob Brister writes in his book, "Shotgunning: The Art and Science", no matter how good you are there will come a day that the only thing you can do is put your gun in the rack & come back the next day & try again. Not a direct quote but more or less what he said. I have been there & struggled with what you are struggling with and I think most of the rest of us have as well. What helped me come out of my slump was to forget about the people. Don't try to impress anybody, just be yourself and shoot. Look at a miss as a learning experience & above all, don't dwell on it. I remember thinking, "I can shoot pretty good when I am alone but I can't hit squat when people are watching". I was embarrassed when I missed & it made me nervous. Putting all that out of mind improved my shooting dramatically. I have also had days when I was totally alone that I got rattled which destroyed my shooting. Just a different version of the same old Gremlin. I got tense and the more I dwelled on it, the worse it got. Learning to relax & be natural was the fix. I don't know if your problem is similar to what mine was but I hope this helps you get over it. Brister recommended practicing your gun mount a lot so it will be automatic or natural when a bird flushes.




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