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 Post subject: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:17 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:07 pm
Posts: 5
hi there, this is my first post in this forum
I am trying to find a replacement powder for SR 7625
I have red dot blue dot and green dot in stock
I want to reload #00 buckshot (9 pellets)on Fiocchi and winchester hulls.




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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:55 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
What do you have data for? Generally, you can use buckshot of the same weight as small shot if you can get it to fit in the hull. 800X, HS6, & Unique might work with suitable data. What is the intended purpose of the load, home defense, deer hunting?


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:22 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 381
Location: New Mexico
First, I assume you are loading 12 gauge, 2 3/4" shells.

First, pick one hull to work with. I can give you a suggestion for the Winchester AA 2 3/4" hull that you can fold crimp. The Fiocchi hulls are harder to find good data for, generally.

Lyman loading manual, 5th edition.

Win AA HS hull (the current Win AA hall)
HS-6 powder, 31.5 grains
Fed 209A primer
Wad set: Ballistics Products BPGS gas seal, then a 1/2" and a 1/4" fiber wad under the pellets
9 pellets of 00 Buck
Folded crimp

Performance is listed at 1247 FPS and 9400 PSI pressure.

For the convenience of using a plastic wad, here's one from Hodgdon's on-line data:
Win AA HS hull
HS-6 31.0 grains
Win. 209 primer
WAA12F114 wad - substitute the Claybuster CB1114-12 if you can't find that Winchester wad - it's made to be really close to the Winchester
9 pellets 00 buck
1,300 FPS and 8,700 PSI

Being the Lyman book is now 11 years old, their loads work sometimes, and sometimes don't fit together very well. I'd use that Hodgdon load and use the Claybuster wads. Stack your pellets to get three layers of 3 pellets each - don't just dump them in and expect a good fit and crimp. Loading buckshot is an exercise in patience, both due to the finicky fit of pellets in the wad and the overall length being right to fold crimp and the low amount of published loading data for any given hull.


Last edited by garrisonjoe on Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:15 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:42 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Western Wisconsin
Your best bet is probably BPI's buckshot manual. The majority of the loads in their manuals are for straight way Euro hulls.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Downl ... fo/XMBUCK/


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:10 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:07 pm
Posts: 5
geometric wrote:
What do you have data for? Generally, you can use buckshot of the same weight as small shot if you can get it to fit in the hull. 800X, HS6, & Unique might work with suitable data. What is the intended purpose of the load, home defense, deer hunting?


I am using Fiocchi and Winchester AA hulls 2 3/4. I want to use em for hunting. I am reading to a lot of forums that i can use buckshot of the same weight as small shot and so far i believe it will work better with the blue dot but I still can not figure out how many grains should i go with.


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:16 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:07 pm
Posts: 5
garrisonjoe wrote:
First, I assume you are loading 12 gauge, 2 3/4" shells.

First, pick one hull to work with. I can give you a suggestion for the Winchester AA 2 3/4" hull that you can fold crimp. The Fiocchi hulls are harder to find good data for, generally.

Lyman loading manual, 5th edition.

Win AA HS hull (the current Win AA hall)
HS-6 powder, 31.5 grains
Fed 209A primer
Wad set: Ballistics Products BPGS gas seal, then a 1/2" and a 1/4" fiber wad under the pellets
9 pellets of 00 Buck
Folded crimp

Performance is listed at 1247 FPS and 9400 PSI pressure.

For the convenience of using a plastic wad, here's one from Hodgdon's on-line data:
Win AA HS hull
HS-6 31.0 grains
Win. 209 primer
WAA12F114 wad - substitute the Claybuster CB1114-12 if you can't find that Winchester wad - it's made to be really close to the Winchester
9 pellets 00 buck
1,300 FPS and 8,700 PSI

Being the Lyman book is now 11 years old, their loads work sometimes, and sometimes don't fit together very well. I'd use that Hodgdon load and use the Claybuster wads. Stack your pellets to get three layers of 3 pellets each - don't just dump them in and expect a good fit and crimp. Loading buckshot is an exercise in patience, both due to the finicky fit of pellets in the wad and the overall length being right to fold crimp and the low amount of published loading data for any given hull.




Thank you. I might get the hodgdon powder and reload some and try them on the field I will also make some with the blue dot maybe 32.grains #00-9 pellets on Winchester AA hulls and Claybuster CB1114-12


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
If you just want something that goes bang & don't care about maximizing the effectiveness of your loads, anything will work in non demanding applications. I don't want to get on my soap box, but let me emphasize, buckshot is a short range proposition. I once thought as long as you maintain the pattern density, it will kill. That works for a while but it runs out.
I don't use buckshot much anymore as deer hunting has changed dramatically but in my younger days, everyday after work I went to my home range & pattern tested loads which were mostly buckshot. This went on for years. I learned a lot about buckshot & I also learned a lot from years of watching & listening to others tell their stories & shooting deer myself.
What all this is leading up to is if you want the best loads you can have is you have to do some work. Buckshot loads are quite often gun specific, so they need to be patterned in the gun you are going to shoot them in. Generally, the things I found that worked best for me are as follows. Buffer increases pattern density & quality more than anything else. Next to buffer, hard, quality buckshot is next. This isn't cast in concrete but the larger buckshot ("OO" in 12 ga.) tends to track straighter. Also, be conservative when you evaluate loads. If you are a deer hunter, buckshot is an excellent killer but 3 hits ain't going to do it with any kind of consistency. The best loads put nearly the whole load in the boiler room! I cringe every time I hear a buckshot hunter tell me he missed a deer. What that usually translates to is "I shot at him out of range". I hate to think how many of these "missed" deer were wounded & later died! I'll get off my soapbox now. Good luck with your loads!


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:15 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 381
Location: New Mexico
Quote:
I am reading to a lot of forums that i can use buckshot of the same weight as small shot


Ummm, no. The problem is that the air space around buckshot is very much larger than the air space in bird shot loads. It's called "packing density" in various sciences that are concerned about how balls fit into containers.

AFAIK, you will NOT be able to get 9 pellets of 00 buck in the wad that would hold the same weight of shot. Here's the back of the envelope math:

9 of 00 buck pellets at 54 grains each is 486 grains weight
486 grains of shot is 1.11 ounce (16 ounces and 7000 grains each equal a pound)
A one ounce shot wad cup won't hold 9 pellets of 00 buck without running way over the top.
Thus, the wad column will be much taller, and you will not be able to close the crimp!

Those folks are "talking out of their keyboard!"

Geometric was spot on about how much work a buckshot load development effort can be to get to good results.

The bottom line is, unless you are hunting and killing animals 100 days or more a year, you will be MUCH more pleased with mortality results, and pay less money and take less time, to buy and test a few quality buckshot loads from the small number of manufacturers still bothering with marketing buckshot.

If you want a lethal and accurate deer load for the shotgun, the modern slug is TREMENDOUSLY better suited to hunting medium and even large game, especially in a rifled slug barrel.

Good luck, GJ


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:24 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 381
Location: New Mexico
Just to make sure that the math matches reality, I cut open an old Remington 00 buckshot load (probably from 1990s) to harvest the 00 buck pellets.

It uses 9 pellets of 00 buck. And an over-powder plastic seal, 1/2" fiber wad, buckshot with grex-like filler, and a fold crimp. No wrapper around the shot. The pellets were tough to shake out of the hull once opened, because there is not a LOT of room when 3 00 buck pellets are jammed tight into each layer - their combined OD is pretty large and fill the hull very snugly.

I then took a CB8100 1 ounce wad and cut the legs off it. Stuck that in the hull, crammed all nine pellets carefully stacked for best fit, and measured the height of top of pellets above the lips of the shot cup. Got 200 thousandths of an inch. That much height would make for real crimping difficulty.

For grins, I took a CB01118 1 and eighth ounce wad and repeated the test. This time the pellets overfilled the wad by 70 thousandths. Which you MIGHT be able to crimp.

BUT, with both of those tests, the pellets packed inside a shot cup visibly bulged the outside of the hull. Tightly crimping the "next size" of wad larger than the suggested equivalent weight of shot, with those tight stacked pellets inside of a typical thick-walled wad, would certainly concern me about

1 - would the finished round chamber due to the hull bulges
and
2 - would the pellets and shot cup be safe (pressure-wise) passing through the choke

If you look at most of Ballistics Products manual, they don't use conventional "shot" wads - they use gas seals, fiber wads and a tyvec wrapper, which is much thinner than the walls of a "shot" wad cup.

All this says, you are going way out on a limb assuming that the "forum advice" is safe, or that shells loaded that way would perform well enough to make 40 yard hunting loads (or more).

Good luck, GJ


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:22 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
True, buckshot does take up more space. So, just use a bigger shotcup, a shot collar or nothing at all. Tom Roster says any of his buffered lead loads in his loading manual can be loaded with an equal weight of buckshot. There is data for steel type wads that use fiber wads inside of the shotcup which makes it easy to adjust the wad column. Why would anybody try to use a target wad for a heavy field load, especially buckshot. There is load data out there for buckshot in lyman manuals as one example.

Yes, it is true that modern commercial buckshot is very good. I use it a lot when I can get it. Plated "OOO" buck for the 10 ga. is getting hard to find.

"---the modern slug is TREMENDOUSLY better----". That CAN be true & is true at ranges at & beyond the distances buckshot becomes "iffy". However, used within it's effective range at fast moving deer in heavy cover, I personally think it reigns supreme. I have never known a buck, in my 60 years of deer hunting, that was solidly hit with buckshot that did not go down in it's tracks. I assume there have been some & perhaps my standard for "solidly hit" is higher than yours but I never saw it. I will say I do not like buckshot for big hogs. I have seen too many fail to go down when shot at point blank range with buckshot. I had one run off after being hit with a 430 gr. slug from a 45-70 loaded to near 458 Win. ballistics from a Ruger No. 1. The bullet went clear through both shoulders. He didn't run far but it was near dark when I shot him & he ran far enough to take half the night to find him! It is also true that deer clubs that dog hunt will not, as a rule, permit the use of rifles or slugs on a deer drive.


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:53 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2325
Location: Attica, Mi
I haven't tested buckshot as much as others, but IMHO, forget it for hunting. As said, it's for close range.I never could get any kind of killing pattern past about 20 yds, and that was with a 10ga. I packed the shot in layers and used filler. Still not much luck. Maybe it was the gun, or just my loads. Good luck.Paul

_________________
Venue shotgun chairman of the LCSC and the LPSXSA


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:49 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
bladesmith says "forget it for hunting"
My experience is very different. Should you not be able to get killing patterns with a 10 ga. at 20 yds., something is wrong!! I have had any number of 10 ga. buckshot loads that would place 8 or more "OOO" buckshot close enough together that I could cover them with one outstretched hand & I don't have big hands. That was at a measured 60 yds., not 20. I have killed a number of bucks at 60 yds. with the 10 ga. & at 40 +/- yds. with the 2 3/4 short magnum loads of 12 "OO" buck in the 12 ga..
The problem with buckshot is one of misunderstanding & ignorance.
Far too many buckshot hunters head out with their buddies with a gun & loads they haven't patterned & don't have a clue what to expect from what they are shooting. Many of the few that do pattern their gun & load nail a piece of News Paper on a pine tree & step off "X" number of yards & if 3 pellets land fairly close to each other, they figure they are good to go! Every one of the bucks I killed with the 12 pellet "OO" 12 ga. load dropped like they were pole axed but the whole load of 12 pellets, or very close to it, struck the heart & lung area & completely penetrated the deer with some winding up under the hide under the far side. 3 random hits won't do the job unless you have a lot of luck on your side. Not every gun will produce patterns that will reliably kill deer at 40 yds.. A funny thing happens to buckshot at the longer distances. Pellet energy starts to drop below reliable levels. That means that even if you have dense patterns, you may not have enough pellet energy.
Also, we have to teach hunters that it is unethical to bang away at crippling ranges where only that lucky golden pellet could kill. For every "golden pellet" how many are mortally wounded?








'


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:27 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2325
Location: Attica, Mi
geo, glad you could figure out a load, I never could. I find your patterns very impressive. Would you mind saying what choke you were using ? Thanks.

_________________
Venue shotgun chairman of the LCSC and the LPSXSA


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Buckshot patterns are at least gun specific to some degree. The 10 ga. loads were from a number of SXS guns I owned over the years. The best patterns were from a Spanish gun that appeared to be put together from outsourced parts. It produced beautiful patterns with virtually everything I stuffed in it but whoever put it together botched the job. It had a nasty habit of doubling, which can be really sensational with a 10 ga.. I couldn't find anybody that could fix it so I got rid of it. The patterns were from 32" inch full choked 10 ga. magnum guns. The loads were all buffered "OO" & "OOO" hard cast pellets.
The 12 ga. loads were from a 30" LC Smith 2 3/4 " gun choked "full & modified" & as previously noted were factory Win. buffered "OO", short magnum 12 pellet loads.
I have not shot buckshot much in recent years. I get invited to a deer drive occasionally but most everybody hunts with rifles now. I also don't shoot at deer at 60 yds. anymore with my 10's, in spite of the fact that I have killed them that far with buckshot & the patterns are impressive. Never did with 12 ga.. Velocity & energy has dropped too much at that range & things are getting too iffy. Of course you can't measure the distance before you shoot in the field! I like clean, one shot kills!! IMHO, a good patterning 10 ga. magnum is capable of consistent one shot kills up to about 50 yds. with "OO" or "OOO" buck.


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:26 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 887
Location: Alabama
Why all the focus on 9 pellet loads of 00B?


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:29 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
"Why all the focus on 9 pellet loads of OOB ?"
Good question, other than that is what the OP wants to load, I don't know. I am sure he has his reasons & yes, it can be a very good load in some applications. I do prefer the larger buckshot for deer hunting but have always liked the 12 pellet load better in the standard 12. Some guns pattern the 9 pellet load better!


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:38 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 887
Location: Alabama
geometric wrote:
"Why all the focus on 9 pellet loads of OOB ?"
Good question, other than that is what the OP wants to load, I don't know. I am sure he has his reasons & yes, it can be a very good load in some applications. I do prefer the larger buckshot for deer hunting but have always liked the 12 pellet load better in the standard 12. Some guns pattern the 9 pellet load better!


Hidebound tradition seems more like it!

Three per layer 00B pellet stack dates to the late 19th century introduction of factory loaded shotshells with bulky black powder. This was carried over into the dense smokeless powder era.

Remington goes so far as to load nine 00B pellets into a one piece wad/shotcup that is stacked layers of 2 with one lone pellet at the top. Yes the shotcup could easily handle 10 pellets! A little more buffer fills the extra space.

Can you think of any reason(s) why a 2 pellet per layer stack could contribute to better pattern performance?


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
Yea, It is tradition because 3 pellet layers fit better in the 12 bore shotgun!


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:25 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 887
Location: Alabama
geometric wrote:
Yea, It is tradition because 3 pellet layers fit better in the 12 bore shotgun!


Only not inside a shotcup or shot collar.

Virtually all domestic 2.75 inch nine pellet 00B commercial loads use a one piece wad and reduced diameter pellets.

The "nominal" diameter of 00B is .33 inches or .711 inches for a three pellet stack. Add the wad petal or wrapper thickness x 2 and you quickly run out of room in the shell.

Stack in layers of two and the stack diameter is .66 inches plus wad petal thickness x 2. Of course that means pellet counts of eight in a 2.75" fold crimped hull with common target wads. Tighter chokes work better as well.

For the OP, here is a selection of 8 pellet 00B loads using popular target wads and cases with BP original buffer. 700X & 800X are among the powders listed.

IMR Handloader's Guide (2003)
See page 35
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREAR ... oading.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: #00 buckshot reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:54 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5343
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
True, if you load a thick shot cup. Some of the data calls for cutting off the shot cup pedals. I never do that! I also don't use one piece plastic wads designed for small shot & many factory loads don't either. I cast my own buckshot most of the time with a 0.35 cal. RB mold for 10 ga. using wheel weight metal. Sometimes it can be tight but since I am shooting a SXS, as long as it goes in the chamber, it's good to go! I don't shoot a lot of 12 ga. buckshot these days. My preferred loads use a plastic gas seal with a built up wad column of card & filler wads as needed. I have tons of scrap mylar laying around left over from the days it was used as drafting film. It comes in various thicknesses & is very tough. It makes an excellent shot sleeve & doesn't take up much room. It also helps if you use a thin wall hull with enough room to get everything inside! Oh yea, I always buffer buckshot loads!!




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