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 Post subject: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:49 pm 
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So there are tons of reputable manufacturers making 1911 copies. You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a manufacturer who makes one (Colt, Sig, Remington, S&W, Springfield Armory, Ruger, etc, etc).

Since the patents on Perazzi MX8 and MX12 have expired, why hasn't anyone (except for Yildiz) copied the design? I'd love to see a reputable manufacturer like Remington, Ruger, etc, make an MX8 or MX12 copy, without any engraving, maybe with silver soldered barrels that won't separate and other improvements.




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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:27 pm 
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Not sure, but I think Yildiz only copied the Perazzi because they bought the machine tooling from Perazzi. Most folks are so proud of their own ideas, they don’t want to just sell clones of other folks’ products.

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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Investment-large
Sales-small

The end.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
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Rooster booster wrote:
Investment-large
Sales-small

The end.

A man of few words. But deep! {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:20 pm
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Location: Mississippi
There are others that sort of copied Perazzi besides Yildiz - Kemen, Zoli, Salvenelli. The interesting thing is no one bothers to copy Krieghoff. And, that was a copy of the Remington.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:28 pm 
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moishepipick wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
Investment-large
Sales-small

The end.

A man of few words. But deep! {hs#


Like a sidewalk puddle:-)


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:17 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Trinidad, CO
I guess when you think about it, all over/under shotguns are "copies" of the Master, John Moses Browning's original design. The only distinct deviation is the Blaser F3, not using pendulum hammers, but rather strikers.

Now, not being a designer myself, I am only looking at it from a layman's perspective.

Intersting topic, nevertheless.

s/f Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 680
Scardog7 wrote:
There are others that sort of copied Perazzi besides Yildiz - Kemen, Zoli, Salvenelli. The interesting thing is no one bothers to copy Krieghoff. And, that was a copy of the Remington.

I'll give you Kemen, but IIRC, they're just as expensive in Europe. Zoli and Salvinelli are totally different from both, the MX8 and MX12.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:10 pm
Posts: 52
The Kolar shares many design features as the Perazzi


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:57 am 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1331
The Kolar seems to borrow from several. Perazzi side lugs, Beretta locking pins, Krieghoff barrels....


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm
Posts: 84
Scardog7 wrote:
There are others that sort of copied Perazzi besides Yildiz - Kemen, Zoli, Salvenelli. The interesting thing is no one bothers to copy Krieghoff. And, that was a copy of the Remington.


Never owned one but I thought Gamba was pretty much a straight copy of Perazzi. True or False?


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 4:35 pm
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It's not the design that makes a Perazzi a Perazzi. It's the skill of the people who make them.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
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Litespeed wrote:
Scardog7 wrote:
There are others that sort of copied Perazzi besides Yildiz - Kemen, Zoli, Salvenelli. The interesting thing is no one bothers to copy Krieghoff. And, that was a copy of the Remington.


Never owned one but I thought Gamba was pretty much a straight copy of Perazzi. True or False?


False.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Posts: 8996
Location: Rochester, NY
moishepipick wrote:
Not sure, but I think Yildiz only copied the Perazzi because they bought the machine tooling from Perazzi.


This makes ZERO sense.

There is no "machine tooling" to manufacture shotguns. Every part of every currently produced firearm is either produced by CNC or finished by CNC if produced by forging/casting. The only thing that may not be is small parts such as pins, screws that may be able to be produced more economically on screw machines.

There MAY be fixturing that is gun-specific (although far from rocket science to duplicate), but since Perazzi is still making the MX12 it would make zero sense for them to sell off hardware they are currently using. I read somewhere where someone said they sold Yildiz their old worn out tooling, that makes even less sense, who would want old worn out cast off tooling? Hell, if they WERE making them with old clapped out machines and fixtures wouldn't that make them even LESS desirable?

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S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:23 pm 
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mpolans wrote:
So there are tons of reputable manufacturers making 1911 copies. You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting a manufacturer who makes one (Colt, Sig, Remington, S&W, Springfield Armory, Ruger, etc, etc).

Since the patents on Perazzi MX8 and MX12 have expired, why hasn't anyone (except for Yildiz) copied the design? I'd love to see a reputable manufacturer like Remington, Ruger, etc, make an MX8 or MX12 copy, without any engraving, maybe with silver soldered barrels that won't separate and other improvements.


Never going to happen with an established mfg. Remington would sell 10k 870s for every Perazzi clone they could make, at a higher profit margin on each 870.

When you make a clone it will ALWAYS be compared to what you cloned it from. This is why the Yildiz makes basically ZERO sense, why would you buy the clone when you could buy a used version of the original for the same $? Plenty of MT6s and MX12s out there in the price range of a Yildiz if you look hard enough. Plenty more Type 3 MX8s in the price range as well.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Gunsite Guy wrote:
I guess when you think about it, all over/under shotguns are "copies" of the Master, John Moses Browning's original design. The only distinct deviation is the Blaser F3, not using pendulum hammers, but rather strikers.

Now, not being a designer myself, I am only looking at it from a layman's perspective.

Intersting topic, nevertheless.

s/f Steve


JMB was hardly the designer of the first over/under, likely over a half century late if we're talking cartridge firearms, and a century or two late if we're talking firearms period.

He is more or less credited with being the designer of the one of the first mass produced and widely accepted over/unders.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 8996
Location: Rochester, NY
I like pie wrote:
The Kolar shares many design features as the Perazzi


Kolar took the best aspects of every high end competition shotgun on the market in the early 90s and melded them all into one gun.

The only improvement I'd make on it after 25+ years would be to add a removable/replaceable breechface to the design, from Blaser. It would also be nice to see them offer a titanium receiver option, although I suspect the price would be punitive.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:56 am
Posts: 784
Keman was the original Perazzi copy, or Perazzi was the original Boss copy? Zoli is pretty close. Beretta SL3 ?

Yildiz seems like the most inexpensive version.


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:00 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
Skeet_Man wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
Not sure, but I think Yildiz only copied the Perazzi because they bought the machine tooling from Perazzi.


This makes ZERO sense.

There is no "machine tooling" to manufacture shotguns. Every part of every currently produced firearm is either produced by CNC or finished by CNC if produced by forging/casting. The only thing that may not be is small parts such as pins, screws that may be able to be produced more economically on screw machines.

There MAY be fixturing that is gun-specific (although far from rocket science to duplicate), but since Perazzi is still making the MX12 it would make zero sense for them to sell off hardware they are currently using. I read somewhere where someone said they sold Yildiz their old worn out tooling, that makes even less sense, who would want old worn out cast off tooling? Hell, if they WERE making them with old clapped out machines and fixtures wouldn't that make them even LESS desirable?

I can’t vouch for the truth or sense of the story, only that it is what I read. The gun is either good or it isn’t. I have no idea now and likely never will. But the backstory is just for fun.

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Morris


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 Post subject: Re: Perazzi Copies Like 1911 Copies?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:20 pm
Posts: 278
moishepipick wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
moishepipick wrote:
Not sure, but I think Yildiz only copied the Perazzi because they bought the machine tooling from Perazzi.


This makes ZERO sense.

There is no "machine tooling" to manufacture shotguns. Every part of every currently produced firearm is either produced by CNC or finished by CNC if produced by forging/casting. The only thing that may not be is small parts such as pins, screws that may be able to be produced more economically on screw machines.

There MAY be fixturing that is gun-specific (although far from rocket science to duplicate), but since Perazzi is still making the MX12 it would make zero sense for them to sell off hardware they are currently using. I read somewhere where someone said they sold Yildiz their old worn out tooling, that makes even less sense, who would want old worn out cast off tooling? Hell, if they WERE making them with old clapped out machines and fixtures wouldn't that make them even LESS desirable?

I don’t disagree with you. And I can’t vouch for the truth or sense of the story, only that it is what I read. The gun is either good or it isn’t. I have no idea now and likely never will. But the backstory is just for fun.



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Morris


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