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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 4:26 pm
Posts: 5
Location: CA Socal
Hi Curly,

It was more of a joke than a complaint "LOL"... And that was the only choice that I saw in the drop down.

Thanks again for the good resource.




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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:29 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 10:12 am
Posts: 111
Location: Iowa
https://reviewmunki.com/reloading-shotgun-shells-cost/
The above link is to a current article that does a very good job of showing the cost and savaings of reloading. Best article of its type I have found.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:18 am
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Location: Arlington, Tennessee
I see a couple of problems with the guy's article, though. One is that is he reloading 1 1/4oz of shot, although reloading 1 or 1 1/8 would decrease the cost. The other is that I can get Win AA and Rem STS (or Premier?) loads at Walmart for around $7-8/box. Estate loads can be $5-5.50/box. With the current Win and Rem rebates on their target loads that knock $2/box off the cost, then I'm down to $6/box and not $10.

From putting numbers in my spreadsheet - I only reload for 12g -, I find it's a wash on cost and maybe even marginally more expensive for me to reload compared to the ammo I can get at Walmart, but I'm just a hobby shooter than only shoots maybe 200/month at most.

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Last edited by CrusherT on Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:54 pm 
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CrusherT wrote:
From putting numbers in my spreadsheet, I find it's a wash on cost and maybe even marginally more expensive for me to reload compared to the ammo I can get at Walmart.


I just started reloading 28ga (and 12) and tried a few of these online calculators to get a better idea of the cost per box to reload.

http://ecsc-skeet.com/linked/shotshell_ ... ulator.htm


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:18 am
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Location: Arlington, Tennessee
Well, I'll add my experience. About three years ago I decided to purchase a used reloader (MEC 600 jr). Got it on ebay and it's worked well. However, I didn't keep it simple and made it unnecessarily complicated.

The not-so-local Sportsman's Warehouse had the best availability of reloading supplies and I ended up with 1000 Rio primers as one of my first purchases before I had read up on all the ins and outs of hulls and the different primer requirements. So that led to me to start purchasing Rio ammo for a while even though I already had a small mix of Win, Rem and Fed hulls.

Then I spent an inordinate amount of time compiling a spreadsheet with a variety of loads because, well, I'm nerdy enough to get carried away with such stuff. I should have just pulled 2 or 3 and started with those. Instead of waiting until I actually needed a new powder bushing that I didn't have, I went ahead and bought three or four more just to have a more complete set of them.

I struggled with the final crimp a lot, but have managed to work that out. I tried Rio, Fed and Rem hulls trying to work things out. Not a great crimp, but the shells go bang.

Anyway, after all that, I think for my hobby shooting, I just wasted a lot of time and $$ to start with and I'll probably end up just shooting a couple of 1oz-Rem hull variations using Win primers and either Clays or Clay Dot. I bought a 1 lb bottle of e3 that I've got to "burn" through, also.

At least until I find a reason to try a new load recipe, I'll probably just stick to the OP's suggestion.

Follow-up question: So for the experienced guys, does all the reloading boil down to just finding a load with the optimal pattern at the speed you want? You could endlessly experiment, but it would seem that once you get to a good pattern, there's not much reason to try something new unless there's a potential benefit to switching to a new component - something like a new powder for better cold-weather performance or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:53 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 10:12 am
Posts: 111
Location: Iowa
I just purchased my first reloader, used MEC 600 Jr. and purchased supplies according to the KISS suggestions. It worked out as follows;
MEC 600 Jr. $100 + 25 dollars worth of Winchester 209 primers were thrown in.
25 lb bag of eagle magnum shot at Bass Pro = $42.00
1lb canister of Alliant Extra Lite powder Brownells = $21.99
1 bag/500 wads claybusters TGT12 Brownells = $10.99
1000 Winchester 209 primers Brownells = $33.99 added price for comparison.

Alliant Recipe for 1 oz loads goes as follows for 1,150 fps with 10,060 psi
Winchester primer; 209
tgt12 wads
15.5 gr Extra Lite powder
using Remington STS once fired hulls.

I am practically next door to Brownells so I go pick up supplies at there retail outlet and don't pay shipping or hazmat fee for the powder, just Iowa taxes.

According to one of the many reloading cost calculators it works out to $5.30/box. I like that. 1oz Remington shells are not available in my area and 1oz Winchester AA loads are $8.99/box. So I will end up with some enjoyable time reloading and more enjoyable time shooting and saving $3.60/box in the process. I call that a good deal.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:26 am 
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john54 wrote:
I just purchased my first reloader, used MEC 600 Jr. and purchased supplies according to the KISS suggestions. It worked out as follows;
MEC 600 Jr. $100 + 25 dollars worth of Winchester 209 primers were thrown in.
25 lb bag of eagle magnum shot at Bass Pro = $42.00
1lb canister of Alliant Extra Lite powder Brownells = $21.99
1 bag/500 wads claybusters TGT12 Brownells = $10.99
1000 Winchester 209 primers Brownells = $33.99 added price for comparison.

Alliant Recipe for 1 oz loads goes as follows for 1,150 fps with 10,060 psi
Winchester primer; 209
tgt12 wads
15.5 gr Extra Lite powder
using Remington STS once fired hulls.

I am practically next door to Brownells so I go pick up supplies at there retail outlet and don't pay shipping or hazmat fee for the powder, just Iowa taxes.

According to one of the many reloading cost calculators it works out to $5.30/box. I like that. 1oz Remington shells are not available in my area and 1oz Winchester AA loads are $8.99/box. So I will end up with some enjoyable time reloading and more enjoyable time shooting and saving $3.60/box in the process. I call that a good deal.

It is an even better deal if you buy in larger quantity packaging.
8 lb of powder, 5K primers and 5K wads and the prices goes down somewhat.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 4692
Location: Annapolis, MD
I've read through all this and, while I may have missed it, I saw no discussion of the oversized primer issue. If you plan to load Rem, Win or Fed target hulls, DO NOT try to use European-made primer. The Euro primers are oversized and will stretch the primer pockets of your US made hulls. You will not be able to go back and use US made primers in the hulls that have had Euro primers loaded in them, the US primers will drop out.

How do I know this? I went trough a sleeve (5000) Nobel Sport primers in some Win AA CF hulls and when I ran out I went back to using Win 209s. I was shooting one day and I pulled a shell out of my pouch and there was no primer in it. I asked myself: "where did it go?" It turns out it was in the bottom of my pouch. I was able to reinsert it with my thumb and fire the round. I encountered many more. Some had their primer pockets stretched so bad the primer would stay in the primer insertion station on the reloader.

You can use the Euro primers so long as you don't try to go back to US primers.

One exception to the Euro-wad admonition might be Cheddites, but I have never used them and don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 621
Nebs wrote:
I've read through all this and, while I may have missed it, I saw no discussion of the oversized primer issue. If you plan to load Rem, Win or Fed target hulls, DO NOT try to use European-made primer. The Euro primers are oversized and will stretch the primer pockets of your US made hulls. You will not be able to go back and use US made primers in the hulls that have had Euro primers loaded in them, the US primers will drop out.

How do I know this? I went trough a sleeve (5000) Nobel Sport primers in some Win AA CF hulls and when I ran out I went back to using Win 209s. I was shooting one day and I pulled a shell out of my pouch and there was no primer in it. I asked myself: "where did it go?" It turns out it was in the bottom of my pouch. I was able to reinsert it with my thumb and fire the round. I encountered many more. Some had their primer pockets stretched so bad the primer would stay in the primer insertion station on the reloader.

You can use the Euro primers so long as you don't try to go back to US primers.

One exception to the Euro-wad admonition might be Cheddites, but I have never used them and don't know.


Cheddites 209's can be your friend , they are close to a Win 209's burn rate and they
are about $25. a thousands . I'm not saying there are others that don't do a better job
with different powders (slow Burning) but with Faster burning powders , they work fine !


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:53 pm 
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Ravenanme wrote:
Cheddites 209's can be your friend , they are close to a Win 209's burn rate and they
are about $25. a thousands . I'm not saying there are others that don't do a better job
with different powders (slow Burning) but with Faster burning powders , they work fine !

Until they start piercing and burning off the ends of your firing pins that might be worth more than you saved on primers!
"Pick your Pizon", said the old hillbilly.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 621
Curly N wrote:
Ravenanme wrote:
Cheddites 209's can be your friend , they are close to a Win 209's burn rate and they
are about $25. a thousands . I'm not saying there are others that don't do a better job
with different powders (slow Burning) but with Faster burning powders , they work fine !

Until they start piercing and burning off the ends of your firing pins that might be worth more than you saved on primers!
"Pick your Pizon", said the old hillbilly.


I'm on my 9th sleeve of Cheddites and no signs yet as I shoot these out of Wingmasters ,
Citori's ,KS5 , 1100 trap and a MX3 combo . I mostly load these in Win HS hulls and FGM's


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:02 am 
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Ravenanme wrote:
I'm on my 9th sleeve of Cheddites and no signs yet as I shoot these out of Wingmasters ,
Citori's ,KS5 , 1100 trap and a MX3 combo


Most folks don't look at the primers close enough to see the piercing. Some are very obvious, some barely. In fact, most folks have no clue what to look for anyway.
Here is one that is not very obvious.
Image
Different exposure of the previous one:
Image

Most people would never detect this one, and I changed the exposure setting to try to bring it out a bit:
Image

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Let us endeavor so to live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 am
Posts: 621
I agree Curly with your observation of most people and if that was a issue with the ones
I had shot , I would find another primer to use ! Those are Great pictures I'm wondering
what gun they were shot out of ? With the Newer Cheddite 209's I have had no issues with
the anvils being punctured with the loads I load .

Thanks for the heads up !


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:57 am 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2672
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
dogchaser37 wrote:


Which leads me to......reloads should not be any less reliable than factory ammunition. If you are getting off sounding or misfires or you need to carry a device to remove stuck wads from the bore, you are doing something wrong.



I carry a brass wad knocker in my shell bag just in case, but I almost never have to use it, however, I loaned it to another shooter once who had a stuck wad, from a factory load.

I used to have an occasional primer only shell until I made a habit of making sure the charge bar on my MEC progressive press actually returns all the way to the right every time I pull the lever. If it sticks half way, it didn't drop powder and if you don't notice it, on the next pull it won't drop shot. That shell that has a wad seated but no shot also has no powder in it. Putting it back under the shot station to put shot in it gives you a primer only load that leaves a wad stuck in the bore. Since I learned this, I have had zero bloopers.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:36 am 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 6:25 pm
Posts: 2672
Location: On the wrong side of the river, Austin TX
CrusherT wrote:
I see a couple of problems with the guy's article, though. One is that is he reloading 1 1/4oz of shot, although reloading 1 or 1 1/8 would decrease the cost. The other is that I can get Win AA and Rem STS (or Premier?) loads at Walmart for around $7-8/box. Estate loads can be $5-5.50/box. With the current Win and Rem rebates on their target loads that knock $2/box off the cost, then I'm down to $6/box and not $10.

From putting numbers in my spreadsheet - I only reload for 12g -, I find it's a wash on cost and maybe even marginally more expensive for me to reload compared to the ammo I can get at Walmart, but I'm just a hobby shooter than only shoots maybe 200/month at most.


The single most expensive component in a shot shell is the shot. When loading 1 1/8 ounce target loads, it barely pays to reload, but I do my practice trap shooting with 3/4 ounce loads giving me 533 loads out of a $42 bag of shot as opposed to 355 loads of 1 1/8 ounce shot. If a 3/4 ounce load fails to break a trap bird at the 16 yard line, either I missed, or I let the bird get too far away before I shot.
When shooting registered, I go to 1 or 1-1/8 ounce loads for a larger effective pattern, especially when my reaction time is a little long.

Try buying 3/4 ounce 12 gauge target loads at Wal-Mart.

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I finally figured out that lifting your head and not following through can ruin your score in a rifle match also.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:48 am
Posts: 9
Also, don't accept poor quality from your bench. When I first got into reloading I was around people who also reloaded. It seemed to me that there was always this bulged shell, or a squib load, or crimp didn't close and BBs all over the place, or whatever. So I got the idea that reloading produced non-factory quality and aesthetics and so I just accepted my own less than perfect product, and I had issues like these and more.

The following statement is for new reloaders: You can produce factory quality or better reloads that are as pretty to look at as they are a joy to shoot. You may choose to accept less, but you don't have to ...

I was away from reloading for a while, and when I came back to it this spring I decided to really work to getting some decent results. I found in this forum and in some youtube videos lots of help, but mainly, for me, once I zeroed in on a couple of recipes, it was all about machine crimp adjustments.

By methodically making tiny adjustments, I was able to get my STS and Gun Club reloads to literally look like identical to factory shells, except of course for the wear and tear on the hull and the primer color. If I used AA or other hulls the process would be the same.

So if you are not getting the quality presentation you want, you don't have to settle. Ask for help and know that perfection is possible from your bench.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:50 am
Posts: 59
Had my very first blooper today.

Also shot the last of my reloads, so I am now at zero days since the first and only blooper.

Perfection from here on out.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:04 am 
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 10:12 am
Posts: 111
Location: Iowa
If you find reloading supplies might want to stock up. I didn't and now the only thing I can find is wads. no shot, powder or primer in stock.


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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:18 am
Posts: 1107
Location: Arlington, Tennessee
B.L.E. wrote:
The single most expensive component in a shot shell is the shot. When loading 1 1/8 ounce target loads, it barely pays to reload, but I do my practice trap shooting with 3/4 ounce loads giving me 533 loads out of a $42 bag of shot as opposed to 355 loads of 1 1/8 ounce shot. If a 3/4 ounce load fails to break a trap bird at the 16 yard line, either I missed, or I let the bird get too far away before I shot.
When shooting registered, I go to 1 or 1-1/8 ounce loads for a larger effective pattern, especially when my reaction time is a little long.

Try buying 3/4 ounce 12 gauge target loads at Wal-Mart.

Thanks for the info. I've been debating recently whether to keep reloading or just go with store-bought ammo. I'd have to test out my inertia-driven shotgun with 3/4oz (or 7/8oz) loads to see how it handles them. Since I don't need a second shot in single trap, as long as it locks the bolt back when firing that would work.

I haven't seen any 3/4oz 12g loads at Wal-mart. Generally there is just the Winchester/Federal/Remington/Estate varieties in mostly 1 1/8oz with some 1oz (usually Estate). Got Academy around here that's usually equivalently priced on shotshells.

I've complained to Bass Pro that I'm disappointed that their shotshell prices are usually at least $1/box higher than elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: New Reloaders - make it easy on yourself
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:05 pm 
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I have had no luck in finding an Inertia Driven gun that will do anything but fire a 3/4 oz load at most any speed. There is just not enough recoil impulse. Get a friend to try them in an inertia gun, you might see what I am conveying.



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