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Subsonic Waterfowl Load Questions

12K views 59 replies 19 participants last post by  cookoff013 
#1 ·
New member here with questions about subsonic waterfowl loads.

Background:

I've been waterfowl hunting for 35 years, shooting my old reliable Benelli Nova 12 gauge pump for the last 15 years.

I also have an inertia cycling Stoeger M 3500 12 gauge with a 26" barrel that I bought to have a shorter, lighter swinging gun for early season fast and low wood ducks. This gun feels in the hand way lighter than my Nova. I have had some ejection issues with 3.5" shells so now mostly stick to 3" shells. Even then I have had some cycling/ejection issues with certain brand factory shells.

I hunt a lot with my dad and in his golden years he is shooting a Benelli Vinci 12 gauge, also inertia driven, light, and fast swinging.

Some of the areas we hunt waterfowl have large homes along the shorelines. This is an issue because there are some areas (mostly they are real honey holes) where though we could legally hunt (regarding distances to homes, property, etc.) we are denied access because our friends that control the hunting rights don't want to upset the neighbors with shotguns going off at first light or whenever really.

Because we have numerous potential honey holes to hunt if we could just reduce the sound I bought some SilencerCo Salvo 12 shotgun suppressors. I have attached them to both my Nova and M 3500 and shot the Federal Top Gun subsonic target loads with the following specs:

- Shell Length: 2-3/4"
- Shot Weight: 1-1/8 oz
- Shot Size: #7-1/2
- Shot Type: Lead
- Dram Eq.: 1.6
- Muzzle Velocity: 900 fps

Shooting these loads though the suppressed Nova is unbelievably quiet with negligible recoil and of course cycling the rounds is not an issue with it being a pump. The only issue is the combined weight of the heavy Nova with the Salvo 12 hanging off the end. Heavier guns can "smooth out a swing" but this combo is boarder line heavy.

Shooting these loads though the suppressed M 3500 was also quiet with negligible recoil. The lighter gun with the Salve 12 hanging off the end was much more manageable than the suppressed NOVA. The issue was the action didn't even come close to cycling. These guns have an optional recoil reducer you can install in the stock which I had installed at the time. I plan to remove it before the next round of testing but based on how little the bolt moved back after a shot I am guessing it will still not cycle these 900 fps loads.

I did not have my dad's Vinci during the initial testing but I am guessing it will have the same cycling issues as it is also a light, inertia driven gun.

I do not currently reload. I will eventually get into reloading but I just don't have the time right now with work, family, and other interests to research and buy all the equipment and then try to figure out how to use it on my own. I have a friend that hand loads who has agreed to try to help me create a subsonic waterfowl load that will cycle in my suppressed M 3500 and my dad's suppressed Vinci.

I want to use a nontoxic shot with heavier density than steel and a larger shot size to maximize the downrange energy at slower speeds. I'm looking at ITX 10 #BB, ITX 13 #2 (they don't offer in BB on the site I was on), and Tungsten #BB.

I want to keep the shell length at 3" or even 2 ¾" if needed to improve cycling (not worried about lower pellet count as we will be only taking closer, decoying shots)

I want to make the fastest possible subsonic load to maximize downrange energy and hopefully solve the cycling issue...so around 1025 fps

Questions:

1. Recommendations on shot type?
- ITX 10
- ITX 13 (if #2 are acceptable)
- Tungsten
- or any other shot type

2. Recommendations on everything else needed?
- shell hulls
- primers
- powder
- wads
- anything else needed

3. Recommendations on the best place to buy the reloading materials?

4. Recommendations regarding guns?
- Is it even possible to develop a subsonic waterfowl load that will be able to cycle the suppressed, lighter, inertia driven M 3500 and Vinci?
- If not, should I just start hitting the gym to be able to muscle my Nova (HA) or should I sell the inertia M 3500 and by a gas gun?
- If so which gas gun?

Thanks for reading this and I'm looking forward to your recommendations and advice.
 
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#27 ·
OnHoPr - great story. I did a fair amount of jump shooting as a kid and know all about those great long walks where you end up with dinner. I'll never forget the day I learned the difference between a fox squirrel and a grey squirrel. I was on a jump shoot walking with my cousin, who was too young to carry a gun, upstream along a drainage between ponds when we stumbled upon a squirrel eating acorns out in the middle of a clearing. My aim was true. We walked up and couldn't believe how huge it was. Up until then I had only shot grey squirrels.

I hear you regarding the ineffectiveness of the early steel loads. I started carrying my first shotgun, a 20 gauge youth pump, in the early 80s. I still knocked a bunch of birds down though. My dad and his buddies started calling me Deadeye when I was 10. It was my first season hunting with a gun and we had been sitting in a cold goose pit all morning watching flock after flock after flock of geese fly directly over us but just out of range. They were going from the water roost to other fields and then back to the water. The pit was located in a narrow corn field that had mature evergreens running the length of both sides…and it was located exactly beneath this highway of a flight pattern. You would hear these low geese before you could see them because the huge pines were planted thick together creating a wall of green in both directions. My dad and his hunting buddy were blowing their old wooden Olts like their lives depended on it but we couldn't even get the geese to look down at us as they blew by just over the tree tops. Frustrating to say the least. By late morning my dad and his buddy had resigned themselves to finishing the thermos of coffee swapping stories while I kept watch. I knew they were going to call it a day soon so I announced I was going to shoot a goose from the next flock. My boast probably made them chuckle. I can't remember because my ears and eyes were focused and my hands were tight around that 20 gauge loaded with crappy steel shot. When the next flock passed over I stood up as tall as I could, put the bead about 10 feet in front of the lead goose, and pulled the trigger. Well the goose just behind it falls for what seemed like an eternity. It hit the ground dead with a couple pellets in the head. My dad and his buddy both had their jaws on the ground probably after spitting their coffee out. So they started calling me Deadeye - even though I was aiming for a different goose. I've made some other lifetime memorable shots over the years but probably like most guys I struggle to be consistent. One day hopefully I'll figure out why I can miss those close up, easy softball shots but then the same hunt pull off a few tough or long shots.

wildflights - thanks for the link to Hal. I'll get in touch with him about TSS loads. And yes, the HW13 from RSI looks like the winner regarding highest density/lowest cost. I'm not sure about Nice Shot being defunct. I was just gathering data from the web and came across their site.

pitted bore - thanks for formatting that table.

Gun update - I noticed most of the 18.5" tactical barrels are bored cylinder so you cannot attach a suppressor. I ended up buying a 20" barrel with accu chokes from Mossberg for $222 shipped. I have an old 500 pump with a fixed modified 28" barrel. It was $125 bucks used in the mid 80's - this was my step-up gun from the 20 gauge. It's a really light gun already so with a 20" barrel it should be about as short and as light as I can get. I'll post a report after it arrives and I get a chance to shoot it suppressed.

Thanks again for the help everyone.
 
#28 ·
Salvos are awesome, congrats!! I actually had made an integrally suppressed H&R 12 ga, it's a beast, too, lol. But stupid quiet, especially if I take the time and put some wet rags inside. Like 22lr quiet, but deeper thump sound.

As for subsonic loads, I switched to stacked loads, as in over powder cards, cork, shot (sleeved) and over shot card glued in (crimped in your guns). I've found that these are easier to drop pressures and make subsonic loads. Along with this I don't have to mess around with what wads I have to match with what powder, etc. I make my own cards and cork wads and sleeves. Get in touch with Circle Fly and Buffalo and other places and ask them about stacked loading, they'll set ya right and help ya out. It's also more environmentally safe, no plastic wads.

Another thing I've found is that in dealing with subsonic, things change kill wise. For instance, I shot a pig with a lyman 525 slug, at higher velocities it'd be a dead pig, at subsonic I just left him with a perfect dot where the slug hit!!! The slug was too broad, with shot it's different though. Point is, most go up 1 or 2 sizes in shot to deliver a killing blow. Think 22 at subsonic vs 38 special subsonic, BIG difference in how far they'll reach and velocity/killing power lasting.
 
#29 ·
Just picked up the post, I was looking @ the same topic last season. Dave & Cook off were spot on in the help they provided. TSS has a website Tungsten Super Shot that Hawglips mods, join the group. Also check out Natchez Shooters Supply for Hevi Shot in size 2 or BB's, look in the clearance or reloading section, last I saw it went up to $129 for 10 lbs(it was $100)! Still a great price even with shipping. I was playing around with a Metro tube trying for the same effect you are looking for. On the topic of Game wardens, they will check your shells with a magnet first, if you tell them you reload with Kent Impact or Bismuth they will take them to the truck & eye them really hard & give them back to you. Oh just dbl checked Natchez they are out of stock @ $138/lb, sorry.
 
#31 ·
Anybody ever end up with a decently quiet subsonic nontoxic load?

The club across the creek lost their lease and property will be developed with some houses being 300 to 400 yards from our blinds. Trying to figure out a way to be a good neighbor.

I'm thinking 1.25 ounce of Bismuth 2s or 1 ounce of HW13 4 at 900 fps would get me a 30 yard load at sea level.
 
#32 ·
Undrcoverrednek said:
Anybody ever end up with a decently quiet subsonic nontoxic load?

The club across the creek lost their lease and property will be developed with some houses being 300 to 400 yards from our blinds. Trying to figure out a way to be a good neighbor.

I'm thinking 1.25 ounce of Bismuth 2s or 1 ounce of HW13 4 at 900 fps would get me a 30 yard load at sea level.
Contact Ballistic Products via a phone call and find out what they have that will produce what you seek.
 
#33 ·
Undrcoverrednek said:
Anybody ever end up with a decently quiet subsonic nontoxic load?

The club across the creek lost their lease and property will be developed with some houses being 300 to 400 yards from our blinds. Trying to figure out a way to be a good neighbor.

I'm thinking 1.25 ounce of Bismuth 2s or 1 ounce of HW13 4 at 900 fps would get me a 30 yard load at sea level.
i think i might have some bismuth information, dunno how quiet theyd be though, what is your chamber length?
cook.
 
#34 ·
rethinking the whole thing, bismuth, you`d have to go up very big shot, because its less dense. it might be a pain to develop a shell thats going to be rubbish anyway, but you can look into having a greendot load with bismuth. it should do the business. i use A1 because thats about similar burn rate.
1,1/4 oz lead has been reported shot with clays powder. there was a post quite recent.

if you wanted perfirmance, probably T15-18 would be better off. although i`ve never reloaded them as subsonics. i dont think i have a clue because the wadding is a big issue. with normal slow powder it will be loud anyway.
 
#35 ·
There was an article in the "American Rifleman" back in the lead shot days about the "Low Velocity Principle". The article said the shot (lead) had to be at least #4 as I recall. Obviously, the bigger & denser the shot, the better it works. I remember one day hunting geese in N. Dakota. It was very windy & cold. I don't like to quote distances unless I measure them. I am a land surveyor & have measured distances for a living for over 40 yrs. I can tell you without a doubt, distance can be deceptive & it is very often over estimated. I had a guy that wanted to fight, I thought he was going to hire a mob hit on me because I questioned how far he was killing ducks with steel. Anyway, everybody was shooting steel except me & my partner. He was shooting bismuth & I had bismuth & some nice shot. You could see the feathers move when the steel hit the birds & actually hear it hit. Me & my partner killed all the geese killed by our group. I made a direct hit on a Canada & took my eyes off him to swing on another bird. When I looked back, he was gone. At the end of the hunt, a Guy from another group came walking up with a dead goose & said, "I believe this is your goose". He flew over 100 yds. after being hit with a factory 10 ga. load of 1 7/8 oz. Winchester bismuth. He was well within range & I could see the feathers move when I hit him in the chest! Long story short, I like bismuth but when the birds are coming over with their oxygen masks on, particularly when it is cold & windy, I like something denser. However, Heavy 13 will kill as far as my ability to hit anything & I killed a mallard so high up hunting in Manitoba that the guides eyes got big as saucers & he started chewing on his upper lip! I have probably talked too much already but since we are telling sea stories, I have killed tons of ducks with 7/8 oz. reloads of #6 lead in my 20 ga. Elsie. I have also killed more than one mallard with #8 lead (it was legal then). #8 anything, except maybe TSS, has never been a good duck load but that just happened to be what was in the gun when the ducks appeared. They will work if the bird is close & you hit them hard! Anyway, I'll shut up now except to say I have 20 lbs. of #2 Hevi Shot. I bet they would make excellent sub sonic loads!
 
#36 ·
I ordered the BPI subsonic load sheet, but it only contains lead loads. I will call per the suggestion.

Cookoff,
I can shoot any length 12 gauge in either a double barrel or pump action. I realize I'll need large bismuth shot such as No. 2, but 1.25 oz should give me around 120 pellets. I truly only need to shoot mallards and an occasional goose within 30 yards. I think the pattern will have enough pellets for that.

I'm not looking for a James Bond move silencer quiet, but I am looking for a nontoxic load that will bring down mallard size ducks within 30 yards and and sounds something more like a pneumatic tool. The goal is to hunt in my existing locations and not wake up the new (300 yards away) neighbors 25 minutes before sunrise every hunt.
 
#38 ·
I didn't measure the distance but I killed a turkey on the wing grave yard dead at what I would guess was about 60 yds., likely over 60 yds.. The load was a factory Winchester 10 ga. load of 1 7/8 #2 bismuth. They don't show a velocity. I also shot a Canada goose incoming, directly in the breast with the same load. It died but only after flying 100 yds. or so. I don't know how far it was but less than 60 yds.. So what does that mean? I don't know. I also have to wonder how some people always know exactly how far birds are when they shoot them & almost invariably, the range is an even increment of 10 or 5 yards. Overall, I have a good opinion of bismuth.
 
#39 ·
Thanks for sharing your experiences with bismuth.

I and the original poster have a very specific goal to accomplish, which is find a quiet load that doesn't disturb neighbors too much.

This quiet load is going to have tradeoffs in performance. It will be lower velocity, which means reduced effective range. Hunting with a reduced effective range means knowing how far away birds are when you shoot. For me, that means having them over decoys that I know the range of. I'm 100% ok with not taking passing shots at birds that are out far and passing by.
 
#40 ·
Sorry for my rambling. Lengthy discussions tend to stray from the main topic a bit. The point I was alluding to is bismuth is almost as good as lead. Actually a good bismuth load is better than a bad lead load of deformed soft shot. Tungsten is better yet! You can see if you study the ballistic tables that high density shot in large sizes retains lethal energy quite a ways out there & slower loads tend to pattern better! Loads of 1000 fps can kill beyond 35 yds.!
 
#41 ·
bismuth isnt that great, its almost on par with lead. but because its lower density, would mean going silly shot weights and sizes to get an almost comparable shotsize. sure 35 yards is doable.

Tungsten is a different beast altogether when we are actually discussing subsonics. i havent loaded any subs in tungsten, but going on my experience with T12 (1250), it should be very welcome. although i used a silly large shot charge.

if you cost calculate the whole package, between 1,1/2oz bismuth subsonic and say 1oz / 1,1/8oz subsonic tungsten 15-18 in say 7s. they might be comparable. subsonics need normal shotgun powder, not "alan steel powder".
the +30 yard ballistics will be very different. very different. handloading / reloads needednt be troublesome. but must be worth it.

the other thing thats not been discussed is shot travel. shoot tungsten, and it might go beyond a distance thats deemed safe. bismuth shot is comparable as smaller lead shot. but that risk is still there.

cook
 
#42 ·
I've got some 1 1/8 oz. subsonic bismuth data from Precision Reloading. Send me a PM if you want it. OK, the speed of sound is about 1,123 fps at sea level, depending on temp. etc.. So where are the velocity figures taken & where does it matter? Most reloading data velocities are the 3ft. instrumental velocity. Muzzle velocity is substantially higher, so is it muzzle velocity that matters? Said differently, what are the physical factors that make the sound?
Wildflights,
Thanks for the data. I've got over 20 lbs. of #2 Hevi Shot & the Metro load looks interesting. I can try calling but do you have a guestimate of pressure? BTW, I like Brez much more than some (not calling any names) of the "EXPERTS" that criticize him.
Yea, Cookoff seems to be our leading authority on the subject & has done by far the most research!
 
#47 ·
TwoFourThree said:
projectile velocity greater than the speed of sound will be loud on its own. (jet aircraft "sonic boom" is an example of this)

Higher gas pressure at the muzzle will be louder as well.

That is basically the physics of it as I understand it.
yeah, thats the key to subsonics that are to be used with a moderator. the expelled gas can saturate and exceed the volume of the Moderator and cause a loud report. The uk has fully moderated shotguns / full length shroud. When a friend and i were testing out subsonics for his needs (he has the gun), we had a large amount of recipes to try, the ones that used a powder in the middle or lighter shot charges, caused some loudness and unburned powder in the moderator (sets like concrete, if not cleaned, the powder absorbs moisture.) the best and quiet ones used tiny powder charges 15-17 grains of fast powder. the speeds actually more consistant (through mod gun). this also allowed us to try and work some loads like 12ga 3/4oz lead subsonics for kids, and old people. on phesent days it doesnt mater about range, the birds come to you.
the equilibration of the gas ejected seems to be THE key in keeping things quiet.
when i first shot some, it sounded like a loud fart.

that thread about lead subsonics have alot of relavance comparable to making heavy nontox subsonics (36gram).

the only caveat with all this, practical and theory... there is a limit, once the powder charges get to about 20 grains with whatever, they`ll tend to be loud anyway. thats a large amount of gas, regardless of payload. i did a 42g subsonic 3" in 12gauge fibre wad. didnt think it was quiet-quiet.
still worked, a few guys use them, really big shot for "pest birds"

sorry for long post. but that is where i`m at.
 
#48 ·
Thanks for putting up with my dumb questions. I understand the sound barrier thing. That must be why a BP shotgun makes a lot of noise even though the ballistics are often subsonic. It produces a lot of gas! I was shooting squirrels with my SXS ml 11ga. & the next day my neighbor asked me, "what the hell were you shooting?" I guess I will have to do some shooting if I want to know more.
 
#49 ·
A lot of good information here.

The gas pressure when the wad exits the barrel is key. I think the best way to lower it to the minimum amount is to use a fast powder to get the payload up to target speed of say 1000fps with good shell pressure (you still need pressure for consistent, reliable powder burn). Burn up all the powder in the first few inches of barrel and then let that pressure behind the wad decrease as the wad travels down the barrel (ideal gas law once all powder is burnt and converted to gas/combustion products).
 
#50 ·
Undrcoverrednek said:
A lot of good information here.

The gas pressure when the wad exits the barrel is key. I think the best way to lower it to the minimum amount is to use a fast powder to get the payload up to target speed of say 1000fps with good shell pressure (you still need pressure for consistent, reliable powder burn). Burn up all the powder in the first few inches of barrel and then let that pressure behind the wad decrease as the wad travels down the barrel (ideal gas law once all powder is burnt and converted to gas/combustion products).
The powder is all burned up in the first inch in the chamber. The pressure detection device on test barrels is 25/30mm in the chamber.
Gas pushes shot, not powder, or burning anything. Gas does.
 
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