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 Post subject: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:34 am
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I've been reloading the same recipe and hulls for about 5 years now. I've got so many empty hulls in my stash that I haven't cycled through them multiple times until recently. I've got a batch that I just reloaded for the third time. They are 12 Ga. AA HS hulls, Fiocchi 616 primers, 18,3 grains of Clays and CB 1100-12 wads. I load 1 oz. of #8 shot.

The first 2 reloads, no problems. Now with the third time, I am getting some tight fitting shells. I shoot a Browning Citori CX and my wife shoots a Fabarm Syren Elos. Similar tight fits in both guns. The plastic case is the problem, not the brass base. Out of about a 1000 fired so far, about 20 have been hard to load in the gun, but they fire and hit targets just fine and easily eject. We've had 6 or 7 others that won't go in the gun at all.

I just loaded some Remington STS to the same recipe for the third time and have had no problems with those. I'd think the component combination was too bulky for the AA's but they are perfect the first few times and most are perfect even when loaded 3 times. At this point, I'm just going to limit the AA's to 3 reloads, but I'm curious if any of you have some ideas about what might be going on. I reload on a Mec Sizemaster.




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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Yes. I’ve noticed that. The plastic on the HS hulls seems to be softer and more pliable than the old cf hulls. That’s what probably give the long reloading life. The swelling can be a problem with semi autos and pump guns. With breach loaders. I just push them in with my thumb.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:16 pm 
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The only ones I have trouble with are those that develop small splits on the rounded part of the crimp. They're not bad enough to toss, and chamber in my O/U's with a push of the thumb.


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
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Location: New Mexico
If you put a lot of seating pressure on those wads, they can bulge out the hull wall plastic where the skirt of the wad fits down into the base piece of the hull. If you can feel the bulge by running your finger over the surface of the loaded hull, about 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the brass, that would be what is preventing drop-in chambering. That CB 11100 pink wad is supposed to be tapered enough to prevent this, but my experience is that it's not always quite enough. A Remington TGT12 wad is about 15 or 20 thousandths smaller diameter, from my samples on the loading bench, and might be a quick fix (it loads very close to the CB 1100 wad). Surprisingly, the CB clone for that (CB 8100) is almost the same diameter as the CB 1100.

Lighter seating pressure, or a more bulky powder, can solve this by holding the shot wad off the base piece.

The STS design with a one piece hull has no ridge to catch the wad skirt, and so does not develop a swelling low on the shell.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:52 pm 
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Luke485 wrote:
I'm curious if any of you have some ideas about what might be going on. I reload on a Mec Sizemaster.


Could it be just the case mouth is getting the "mushroom top" and you need more taper/radius from your final die??

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:40 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:49 pm
Posts: 289
I have the same problem with Federal 20ga Top Gun hulls. I think the hulls plastic expands and takes a set from the pressure of firing. After 3 reloads I can barely push them into my 625, Remington GC no problem.


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:40 pm 
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The plastic can't swell. It is fired in a chamber and swells to seal the powder gas then shrinks to allow for easy extraction. The metal head does the same thing.

If you are having trouble loading the shell into you shotgun but the extraction/ejection is fine, something you are doing when reloading is the problem.

Either the crimp end is mushrooming, wrong wad or wrong adjustment of the crimp die which is crushing the hull. Or maybe you are trying to use a load that was well suited for the CF AA's and not well suited to the HS AA's.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:46 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
The plastic can't swell. It is fired in a chamber and swells to seal the powder gas then shrinks to allow for easy extraction. The metal head does the same thing.

If you are having trouble loading the shell into you shotgun but the extraction/ejection is fine, something you are doing when reloading is the problem.

Either the crimp end is mushrooming, wrong wad or wrong adjustment of the crimp die which is crushing the hull. Or maybe you are trying to use a load that was well suited for the CF AA's and not well suited to the HS AA's.
This! You are using Clays powder, which is very bulky. And a CB 1 oz. wad. Do you have any 1 1/8 oz wads handy? If so, try them instead of the 1 oz. wad. It will shorten the stack height and maybe cure the problem. And make sure you are applying just enough wad pressure to seat the wad against the powder, and no more.

Or, reduce your shot charge to 7/8 oz.

Or, get some DRA12 pink 1 oz. wads.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:34 am
Posts: 186
Nebs wrote:
dogchaser37 wrote:
The plastic can't swell. It is fired in a chamber and swells to seal the powder gas then shrinks to allow for easy extraction. The metal head does the same thing.

If you are having trouble loading the shell into you shotgun but the extraction/ejection is fine, something you are doing when reloading is the problem.

Either the crimp end is mushrooming, wrong wad or wrong adjustment of the crimp die which is crushing the hull. Or maybe you are trying to use a load that was well suited for the CF AA's and not well suited to the HS AA's.
This! You are using Clays powder, which is very bulky. And a CB 1 oz. wad. Do you have any 1 1/8 oz wads handy? If so, try them instead of the 1 oz. wad. It will shorten the stack height and maybe cure the problem. And make sure you are applying just enough wad pressure to seat the wad against the powder, and no more.


Or, reduce your shot charge to 7/8 oz.

Or, get some DRA12 pink 1 oz. wads.


Appreciate the comments but I'm not sure this is the problem. The first two reloads with the same recipe slide into the chambers like new loads. What changes on the third reload?


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:28 pm 
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Luke485 wrote:
Nebs wrote:
dogchaser37 wrote:
The plastic can't swell. It is fired in a chamber and swells to seal the powder gas then shrinks to allow for easy extraction. The metal head does the same thing.

If you are having trouble loading the shell into you shotgun but the extraction/ejection is fine, something you are doing when reloading is the problem.

Either the crimp end is mushrooming, wrong wad or wrong adjustment of the crimp die which is crushing the hull. Or maybe you are trying to use a load that was well suited for the CF AA's and not well suited to the HS AA's.
This! You are using Clays powder, which is very bulky. And a CB 1 oz. wad. Do you have any 1 1/8 oz wads handy? If so, try them instead of the 1 oz. wad. It will shorten the stack height and maybe cure the problem. And make sure you are applying just enough wad pressure to seat the wad against the powder, and no more.


Or, reduce your shot charge to 7/8 oz.

Or, get some DRA12 pink 1 oz. wads.


Appreciate the comments but I'm not sure this is the problem. The first two reloads with the same recipe slide into the chambers like new loads. What changes on the third reload?
On second thought, maybe it's something else. But with only 20 out of a 1000, it's hard to say. But it sure sounds like the hull is buckling and causing irregularities in the case-wall, a classic symptom of a too-tall stack height in a AAHS. I would raise the crimp start a half turn and see if you get any more. I was loading some AAHS the other day on my 366 and noticed some crumpled hull-sides going by so I started watching the crimp start station and sure enough, i saw one crumple there. I raised that die one full turn and they stopped crumpling.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:37 pm 
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You have to remember that each time you use the hull you are taking a little bit more material off the I.D. of the hull which weakens the hull. You may have a batch that was a bit thin to begin with. If you have reloaded ammunition that won't go in the shotgun, you have to fix whatever it is that you are doing wrong. In this case I would get a set of calipers and measure a round that goes into your shotgun easily and then measure one that won't. This is the only way to find out where the problem lies.


As an aside.....

Hulls get abraided with each firing, that is why all reloading data is supposed to be done with once fired hulls, not new hulls or hulls that have been fired multiple times.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:31 pm 
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Why wonder? Get out your calipers (you do have calipers, right? Ain't a reloader if you don't have vernier or electronic calipers), measure to find the fattest part of a reload that doesn't want to chamber. It will probably be either at the crimp, or just above the base.

Another clue is at what point when chambering into an over/under shotgun does the shell hang up? Just starting to go into chamber - most likely it's the crimp area. When 2/3 of shell is already in chamber - it's swollen just above the brass.

Let's get that out of the way first.

When you find out WHAT has happened, it will be a lot easier to find out WHY it has happened, and why after a few reloads it is happening.

Good luck, garrisonjoe


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:34 am
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Thanks for all of the good suggestions. I'm going to go through a batch of 3 times reloaded shells that I have and find out exactly where they are getting fatter. Most that I remember, are going in at least halfway and then getting resistance. I could easily be putting too much pressure on the wad during that step. I'll check it out. I can live with 20 or so out of 1000 being tough to get in but if I can find the flaw in my process, I'll be happier. Makes sense that the hulls could be degrading with every use and getting weaker.

One other strange thing I've noticed with Winchester AA HS hulls is color. I mostly shoot the grey hulls when I use factory ammo but I have a good number of red hulls. The red hulls have a splitting problem at the crimp after 2 reloads that I don't see with the gray hulls. The red hulls seem to be made out of a harder (more brittle) plastic by the way they feel. I just toss them now after 2 reloads and I'm not collecting empty red hulls anymore. Thankfully I have about 10 times more gray hulls than red, so I don't think I'll run out soon.


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:47 am 
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Luke485 wrote:
The red hulls have a splitting problem at the crimp after 2 reloads that I don't see with the gray hulls. The red hulls seem to be made out of a harder (more brittle) plastic by the way they feel.


They are most likely made from the same plastic, the colorant being the reason they feel different and split early. The colorant can have a strange effect on the plastic. I spent 40 years in the blow molding and injection molding industry.I have seen some strange things happen when you add color.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:01 pm 
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YevetS wrote:
They are most likely made from the same plastic, the colorant being the reason they feel different and split early. The colorant can have a strange effect on the plastic. I spent 40 years in the blow molding and injection molding industry.I have seen some strange things happen when you add color.

Steve

After all these years, I wonder why the American shotshell manufactures don't have a product line where they simply "skip" the colorant step. You know, like the clear Fiocchi, and now the clear Rio 'Sporting Clays' shells.

Maybe they don't want us to see what's inside, - that's what I think. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:00 pm 
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Yellow in 20 ga is a safety measure so that it isn’t confused with 12 ga. If you think that is a silly notion, I’ve seen it happen especially with novice shooters. Green has always been associated with Remington. Maroon with Federal, Red with Winchester. While the color isn’t a trademark, it’s something associated with the brand. Remember Peters Blue?

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:12 pm 
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If they were not colored we would not know which ones to pick out of the dumpster.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:37 pm 
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For what it's worth Luke, my experience with the red AAs is about the same as yours. Three reloads is about all I've been getting. Loads are about the same too: 1 oz #8.

When they no longer just drop into the chamber and have to be pushed in I toss them. It only takes a little push with my thumb but by that time they develop holes around the crimp then they just get filthy and ugly.

Not sure about the grey AAs. They may last longer but I have not reloaded as many of them as the red ones.

Remington STS, Nitros, GCs... all reload a dozen times or more but by that time they're ugly too. Whatever the problem is that causes the crimp end to enlarge they don't suffer from it.


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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:11 am 
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The AA HS .410 hulls can be reloaded up to 10X. My experience is that the case walls get thinner with each reload until they almost become translucent and they will easily buckle.

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 Post subject: Re: AA hulls getting fatter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:36 am 
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Nebs wrote:
Or, reduce your shot charge to 7/8 oz.

Or, get some DRA12 pink 1 oz. wads.


Hmm, I might just have to try some DRA12 wads. I'm loading CB1100-12 wads and I am loading about 15/16 ounce of shot in order to avoid tented crimps in Gun Club shells.



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