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Advice needed

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#1 ·
Looking for a little advice on improving my son's sporting clays score. He's been shooting for a couple months now in high school events where we do a triple event (SC, trap and skeet). He can shoot lights out on trap and skeet....usually 24 out of 25 on average - no problem in that area. However, he absolutely sucks on sporting clays. He shot a 28 this past tournament. Shot a 60 before that. I cannot figure this one out. I've tried every choke and shell.

I've had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week. Seems like he's getting worse. He's now getting conflicting information so I going to handle myself. Thinking about getting his eyes checked, but he doesn't miss a dove when hunting. It's got to be something with eye domination, leading, or gun fit. Not sure.

I'm looking for some drills I can do with him at home. I have a very large track of land and thought about just walking through woods and hand throwing targets against tree background. He's struggling and it's getting in his head at this point.

Any drills or advice would be appreciated. He's shooting beretta 686 sp1. Age 15. No recoil issues and no flinching.

Thanks jed
 
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#2 ·
You took him to three different instructors in a couple of months?.......

I'd first make sure any instructors check out, have some sporting experience. But if he's hitting 23-24's on both trap and skeet, the issues prob not his eyes. Is he trying to shoot sporting with a hard mount like skt and trap? If so, he's likely way behind on picking up the target visually. Just one thought, but I see trap and skeet shooters try to get locked into their gun on the sporting course.

Really tough to do, if that's how he's trying to shoot. Hard to say from 'here':)
 
#3 ·
Rooster booster said:
You took him to three different instructors in a couple of months?.......

I'd first make sure any instructors check out, have some sporting experience. But if he's hitting 23-24's on both trap and skeet, the issues prob not his eyes. Is he trying to shoot sporting with a hard mount like skt and trap? If so, he's likely way behind on picking up the target visually. Just one thought, but I see trap and skeet shooters try to get locked into their gun on the sporting course.

Really tough to do, if that's how he's trying to shoot. Hard to say from 'here':)
Yep. I know it's hard to help sitting behind computer. Two of the instructors are on his team as coaches. The other was a guy I met during a tournament who offered to help. The instructors are pretty good and the other kids are doing better and catching on.

Yes, he is trying to shoot SC with hard mount. And you have a very good point that I thought the same thing as you because of dove hunting (throw up and shoot). That's going to be my next thing to have him try. I agree, his eyes should be good since he's almost perfect on skeet. Thanks
 
#4 ·
"He's now getting conflicting information" so what conflicting information is he getting ?

"I've had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week" 3 instructors and they haven't checked eye dominance and gun fit ? With so many instructors and now moving on to the 4th IMO the kid might be getting pushed faster into improvement than he should, maybe peer pressure ?

If your son averages 23-24 in skeet & trap I would say he is a dam good shot for his age. SC has much more to learn than skeet & trap. How about one good coach and some time ?
 
#5 ·
A few simple questions:

1) What type of gun is he shooting, auto or O/U, high rib or flat rib, sloped comb stock or parallel comb stock?
2) Does the stock on his gun have an adjustable comb and/or adjustable shim washers for cast and drop?
3) How many inches above point of aim does the pattern center hit at 30 yards with a F choke in the gun, with him shooting from a standing and not supported position?

My guess out of the gate is his current target gun is shooting pretty high. I'd also guess that his most problematic targets in sporting clays are dropping, rising or curling targets, whereas he does fine with trap away or normal crossing targets? Skeet and trap are games where a high POI, even as high as 80% to 100% high can work just fine. But it does not work so well for sporting for most people.
 
#6 ·
It's not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese's dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.
 
#7 ·
Rack-N-Roy said:
"He's now getting conflicting information" so what conflicting information is he getting ?

"I've had him with 3 instructors and going to try a 4th one next week" 3 instructors and they haven't checked eye dominance and gun fit ? With so many instructors and now moving on to the 4th IMO the kid might be getting pushed faster into improvement than he should, maybe peer pressure ?

If your son averages 23-24 in skeet & trap I would say he is a dam good shot for his age. SC has much more to learn than skeet & trap. How about one good coach and some time ?
Thanks. Good advice. The conflicting information like sustained lead, follow through, hard mount or not, hold point, break point..."you leading too much...you're behind it.... move your feet, butt etc...." he's mixing up the three events I think. Information overload, like you said. Then throw in his buddies trying to offer their advice too.

They checked eye dominance and gun fit the first day, but he switched guns and I think he is neutral eye dominant instead of right eye dominant because he says he has to close his left eye to hit the skeet and trap. The new gun was fitted by dealer so he should be good there otherwise he couldn't hit anything. He says it feels good and the pattern board looks good.

He shoots consistent 24 out of 25 almost every time. He shoots dove with same gun and doesn't miss...its amazing how good he shoots real birds.

I was also thinking it may be color or background on SC course. He has trouble sometimes picking up target.
 
#8 ·
JacksBack said:
A few simple questions:

1) What type of gun is he shooting, auto or O/U, high rib or flat rib, sloped comb stock or parallel comb stock?
2) Does the stock on his gun have an adjustable comb and/or adjustable shim washers for cast and drop?
3) How many inches above point of aim does the pattern center hit at 30 yards with a F choke in the gun, with him shooting from a standing and not supported position?

My guess out of the gate is his current target gun is shooting pretty high. I'd also guess that his most problematic targets in sporting clays are dropping, rising or curling targets, whereas he does fine with trap away or normal crossing targets? Skeet and trap are games where a high POI, even as high as 80% to 100% high can work just fine. But it does not work so well for sporting for most people.
Beretta 686 sp1 sporting. Basic gun out of box. No comb adjustment.

We tested on pattern board at 22 yards and pattern was about 55/45 above with IC choke in standing position. Have not tried F yet.

Yes, you are correct on problem targets. No problems with crossing or going away.

Thanks
 
#9 ·
Hwcn said:
It's not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese's dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.
Pulling him away from skeet would cause him to have a melt down. He loves it. He hates SC for obvious reasons. Haha.

I also believe one of his problems is that we jumped in this sport too quick and instructors were limited with time to really do any good. We have one more school tournament and I promised him we would slow down and fix it. He thought since he was a crack shot on dove field, he could hit some little orange targets. At least we won't go hungry!
 
#10 ·
Skeet shooting is shooting same speed at targets. Sporting clays has variations, plus high and low. In today's world you can't shoot well is Sporting Clays shooting one method. You need to learn at least 3. Learn the 3 on a skeet field, then take your practice to Sporting Clays, preferably with someone that knows targets and how to approach...
 
#11 ·
jed1894 said:
Hwcn said:
It's not the shells, unless you are pounding him with heavy shells. 2 3/4 dram 1oz for all the disciplines will work fine.

Skeet is a fast gun speed game. Young eyes can may also shoot trap with fast gun speed if their hold points are inexperienced. I would bet that your son is not connecting with the birds speed in sporting clays, but trying to shoot them with excessive gun speed. But of course this is just a guess!

The best thing I ever did to improve my sporting clays was to not shoot skeet as much. I had learned one gun speed and that just does not work in sporting clays.

Also, buy a copy of Anthony Matarese's dvd on shooting sporting clays. He is simply the best.
Pulling him away from skeet would cause him to have a melt down. He loves it. He hates SC for obvious reasons. Haha.

I also believe one of his problems is that we jumped in this sport too quick and instructors were limited with time to really do any good. We have one more school tournament and I promised him we would slow down and fix it. He thought since he was a crack shot on dove field, he could hit some little orange targets. At least we won't go hungry!
Not suggesting you pull him away from skeet, was just sharing my experience because sporting clays is my focus. I am suggesting that he my not be in sync with sporting clay birds because he is using too fast of gun speed. Through his frustration, he may also be looking at the beads to measure leads. If he does both of these things together, he could be seeing too much lead, but could still be shooting behind because of a dead gun.

What is really disconcerting is that he shoots really well at both skeet and trap and it is not translating at all to sporting. And the fact that none of the instructors can figure out why, to me, would be a red flag in their teaching abilities. I'd find a well regarded instructor and go from there. I'll bet it is a relatively easy fix, but you need the right coach.
 
#13 ·
Sounds like he's having problems with the variety of bird paths that are DIFFERENT from his trap and skeet targets. SC has a tremendous number of combinations of both path shape and bird speed, and even varying ranges, that are never seen in T or S.

You say:
been shooting for a couple months now
Well, you are at a good time to build some strong fundamentals and habits - things that don't have to be shed as he gets more clay-wise.

Most shooters have to learn all the possible paths and speeds to build up an inventory of techniques to go after each bird. That comes from shooting a couple of years for even the most attentive shooters with photographic memory. This is an area that Anthony Matarese's instructional video covers in a lot of detail, though.
https://videos.clayshootinginstruction.com/

If you have the means to obtain a couple-three types of SC traps, you could start on your own land by working some of the presentations until he sees and feels the pattern and leads needed to have success on each one. It will be cheaper and more personalized than working on a range or with instructor for now. IF he can start having success reading birds and detecting how and why he is failing to connect on each miss. Just throwing "hand" birds against different woods backgrounds does not give him the ability to repeat his attempts until he learns to connect with a particular presentation. (Your arm will fall off before that happens.)

But a good instructor who can give him a series of beginning SC instructions is probably the most successful in a short time. (It was for me). If he can benefit from the combination of instruction and practice while being supervised. Not all instructors fit a given shooter's capabilities and needs. Don't be afraid to move off of using "a pool of coaches" if what he needs is more time and insight. The sooner he gets to being "self correcting" on his misses (that is, really understanding why he is missing a particular presentation), the faster he progresses. And the more he will enjoy the effort.

Chokes - a beginner is well served on most fields with Skeet or IC. Until he gets to where he just can't get good breaks at distance, don't hinder his learning with over-tight chokes.

Loads - an ounce of shot at 1200 FPS will do anything he needs for several years to come.

His problems right now are not gun, or choke, or shells. It's making his brain/eyes/subconscious help him instead of beating him up. You know, the HARD stuff.

Good luck, garrisonjoe
 
#14 ·
Thanks guys. All good advice. He's OCD in a good way. He will figure it out. He's very persistent and is aggravated he can't master this like other sports he plays. We having a ball with this sport and spending some good time together working it out.

He met a little girl (year or two older than him) last weekend that shot a 90 on the course he shot 28 on. She has offered to "help" him after the season is over. Come to think of it, that may be why he shot that 28!
 
#17 ·
jed1894 said:
Thanks guys. All good advice. He's OCD in a good way. He will figure it out. He's very persistent and is aggravated he can't master this like other sports he plays. We having a ball with this sport and spending some good time together working it out.

He met a little girl (year or two older than him) last weekend that shot a 90 on the course he shot 28 on. She has offered to "help" him after the season is over. Come to think of it, that may be why he shot that 28!
I think you've identified it:)
 
#19 ·
Rooster booster said:
T-Pee said:
Since he's dead on with hunting, maybe have him try a low mount for SC. It allows the shooter to scan the sky with the peripheral and not concentrate on the gun.

tp (waiting for Rooster to crow...uhhh...laugh)
Why?......I shoot low gun for most everything.
Video of Station #8 or it didn't happen. :wink:

tp (who knows better)
 
#24 ·
Just an observation based on my limited and unqualified experience ... I found that, as a life long rifle and pistol shooter, I could shoot skeet, trap and pattern boards respectably by aiming the gun and using one eye. The pattern board is stationary. The skeet targets always fly on the same line at the same speed. Trap targets are always going away at a predictable speed and rising. I could aim at these targets as they do not require as much depth perception and three dimensional consideration as the myriad of sporting presentations and different types of targets. My sporting clay performance began to improve when I approached sporting as a "binocular game" ... seeing the target clearly in both eyes all the way through taking a pointed (in comparison to aimed) shot with a properly mounted gun. Just a thought. And, thanks for taking the interest in helping the young man shot.
 
#25 ·
I'm gonna chime in with some comments that may not be popular. Its all with the best intent.

Sporting is a different game. Period. Sure, some crossovers to trap and skeet but its a different game. Shooting doves is a different gig then shooting ducks from a pit.

Poor approach. He hits 24 in trap but 28 in sporting, so it must be the shells...eye.....gun. Nope.
Poor approach. He's been coached by 3 different what you call good instructors, and is going for a 4th. Nope.

Find....a good qualified instructor that will take him from the beginning. Like Jack said, equipment is a start. Get a series of scheduled, planned lessons. Stay consistent. I'm sure all the "help" you've gotten is all well meaning.....but its a bad approach to just walk through the buffet line. Your question may be, ok guys....what is important in finding a qualified coach? Thats a thread in itself.

Expensive? Sure. Then again, this is a expensive gig. I know you hate seeing the frustration and sounds like you want to do the best by him...so get ready to fork out some coin. If one thinks education is expensive, try ignorance. And after putting my son though law school. I understand educational expense.

Solid, consistent lessons will same time...frustration and money in the long run. Thing about running a series with a qualified instructor, you get a plan.....can measure success. When one is getting just "help", there is no plan. Just help.

Series should include, equipment. Proper mechanics and fundementals. Explanation of the game. The complexity, start simple. How to practice. How to compete. Consistency of technique. Master one before moving onto others. Good luck.
 
#26 ·
Here's something that he can do at home every day that will help him on the sporting clays course: Google "OSP Three Bullet Drill".

Here's something that he can try on the sporting clays course: Keep his nose pointed toward the target from the chosen pickup point to the break point. Nose and eyes, not just eyes. This allows the brain to synchronize with the target's speed and trajectory.
 
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