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 Post subject: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
Posts: 241
It was just announced that the grouse season in New Jersey has been closed for 2019. It was not unexpected for numbers are way down. The quail season has been closed for several years for the same reason. It was only a few decades ago that quail, grouse and pheasants were very plentiful in NJ. Deer and bear are very plentiful,but the the upland game birds are gone. Very disappointing for folks like me who enjoy pursuing upland birds with pointing dogs and double barrel shotguns.




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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:37 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Belcamp,MD
Somewhat of a commiseration, recall that PA closed the grouse season which typically started the day after Christmas just last year.
I can fully understand the reasoning behind the call. I just hope to see some results. I realize this will certainly take some time.


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Location: Belcamp,MD
Did they reduce the cost of a hunting license?


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:32 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2887
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
Closing NJ's ruffed grouse season will not return the ruffed grouse to NJ.....that is simply not in the cards.

It could be and likely is the right thing to do but closure is not an answer to the other and, some of them, greater problems facing the bird....NJ and elsewhere.

Sadly tho, there will be folks who bemoan not being able to kill that last grouse.

*hopefully, the cost of a NJ hunting license will not be reduced. Can't reckon that logic.

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Gentlemen,

The only reason I think the closure of the Grouse season in NJ is not a real good idea is now we will have even more Grouse hunters from NJ coming to Pa to Grouse hunt. This has been going on for many many years, some NJ hunters even own their own camps here in Pa and have been welcome for generations. Long ago NJ was a good state to hunt upland birds in, sorry to see this happening. To many of us Grouse hunters in Pa, this was not an unexpected event. Grouse numbers in NJ have been way down for long time. I do hope they start cutting/managing their forests to help their Grouse population also.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
Posts: 241
Dave, I don't think you need to worry about any additional NJ hunters going to PA to hunt grouse due to the closed season. All the NJ grouse hunters have for years been going to PA and NY. Very few hunters have been doing any significant grouse hunting in NJ for the last 30 years due to the low numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
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Location: Endless Mountains of PA
DoublesForever,

Well I do know we have plenty of NJ sportsman that come to Pa to hunt Grouse. In fact we have a couple families from NJ that have just restored their grandfathers cabins on Painter Run Road, not far from my log cabin on Powder Horn Lane. The one guy is an avid Grouse hunter with a couple GSP dogs. He also hunted NJ during their Grouse season, you can bet he will be here more often now that the NJ Grouse season is closed. How many more like him we have, is yet to be seen. Don't get me wrong these sportsman who own property here are more than welcome, they help our small town mountain economy big time.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 57
So what is the problem(s) causing low grouse numbers in New Jersey? Habitat loss?


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
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The biggest problem is habitat loss due to maturing forests. This issue is not unique to NJ but is affecting grouse numbers in other States. Other contributing factors are increased predators and rural land being rapidly lost to development.


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Deleted double post!

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Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Doublesforever,

No doubt about it proper forest management has always been a big problem in NJ. NJ does have a lot of forest however, unfortunately little cutting has been done for many years, without the young forest growth animal life of all kinds suffers, especially the Grouse population.

As one of the members noted it's not just NJ that has this problem, the southern tier of Pa is having the same problem. Fortunately we have lots of forest land above Rt 80 here in Pa that logging goes on all the time. Proper Forest Management is critical to good Grouse populations no matter the location.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man
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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:21 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Gentlemen,

The 2020 Grouse and Woodcock season here on the northern tier was very good, with bird contact numbers above 4 birds an hour, unfortunately these numbers are no where near the Grouse numbers when I was a young man. Here in Potter County, Woodcock numbers for some reason seemed to be down a little, I blame this on the early snow on our mountains, that seemed to push the Woodcock in a more southern direction.

We did see a good number of NJ Grouse hunters this year, although less than we actually believed would happen. The OH, NY, MD and MA Grouse hunters were here in good numbers also, especially right before Thanksgiving. Even with the different states Grouse hunters hunting here in Pa, the actual number of Grouse and Woodcock hunters here on the northern tier, was way down this season, compared to prior Pa Grouse and Woodcock seasons. Further the PGC seems to be stocking more Pheasants than ever before. Which takes pressure off of our Pa Grouse and Woodcock populations. However many sportsman like myself, hunt all three upland birds on most outings, until Woodcock and Grouse seasons ends.

Good Grouse and Woodcock season on the Northern tier this year, with the lower number of hunters.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


Latest Grouse we took right before Thanksgiving, with my new 20 gauge L.C. Smith 00 gun and my buddy Galens Westley Richards 16 gauge.
Image

Nice Grouse and Woodcock taken with the modern L.C. Smith 28 gauge.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:41 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:03 pm
Posts: 241
Dave, Nice to hear you had a good grouse season in your area. Have not heard anything about the rest of PA or NY. Seems every year less and less folks are hunting grouse. Especially this year due to lack of travel because of the virus. Grouse and quail seasons continue closed in NJ with no opening in sight in the near future. The only pheasants are stocked birds. A sad state when just about 50 years ago there was great hunting for all three birds in various parts of NJ.


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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Doublesforever,

The really sad realization is here in the eastern part of the USA, not just NJ but several states like NJ, OH and even parts of Pa have not cut their forest and managed for their upland hunting correctly, for some time. Part of the problem is the Upland Shooting life has not been passed down to many of the modern sportsman. A lot for this has to due with the liberal minded schools our modern youngsters attend, that preach that guns and hunting are bad. We still do have the RGS and other organizations like them fighting the good fight however, and mentoring many young hunters. It use to be that our upland shooting life was so popular here in Pa, WVa, OH, NY, NJ, NH, VT & ME that gun control politicians were very very few. Many of our young people today are so rapped up with their computers and iPhones that we have lost a big portion of our American Sportsman. Heck that once great program no longer exists.
There are some cable sporting shows that are pretty popular, nothing left on main stream TV however, for the kids to even watch. It is a planned event by many of these states to let our forest grow old and help to eliminate our upland shooting life. Our southern tier here in Pa is definitely proof of major forest mismanagement .

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers
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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2887
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
Failure to manage forests for a healthy age class diversity has nothing to do with schools or eliminating an upland shooting life....it does have to do with a laxness in promoting to the Public, the value of that age class diversity to the forest, to the game and non-game species within and around the forest and, lastly, to we humans.
It also has to do, or due, with the unwillingness in a political management environment, state and federal, to spend the lucre, energy and time in countering the efforts of the SELC and other anti-environmental, special interest groups such as the Buckeye Forest Council.

The easiest route toward problem-solving never fails to appeal ...despite the fact of it being a dead-end road.

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 262
Location: NJ
What about the effects or Owls, Hawks on the birds population? does this or could this have anything to do with the lack of those game birds, More Hawks and Owls than I ever saw in my lifetime in NJ

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
rbdjr,

Yes the predators have a negative effect on the over all Grouse population, at the head of the predator list that adversely effect our Grouse population, are the flying predators, especially the Great Horned Owl. With the over grown forests in NJ the flying predators are even more of a problem than here in Potter County, Pa where we have great Grouse Habitat. However the mismanagement of the forests is the main problem in NJ, and has been for many years. The closing of the Grouse hunting season in NJ was the correct move, as GBE noted once the Grouse population gets dangerously low, even taking a few birds from that population further endangers the over all population.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:09 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2887
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
rbdjr wrote:
What about the effects or Owls, Hawks on the birds population? does this or could this have anything to do with the lack of those game birds, More Hawks and Owls than I ever saw in my lifetime in NJ


Some effect....along with other predators, from nest predators boomed by the deer feeder explosion to humans.

The problem is all of these and many, many other lesser negatives can be absorbed within a viable grouse population....viable tho, is less an occurrence today due to habitat loss and decline along with weather issues at bad times of the year.
Raptors do make the Top 3 problems tho and considering that the spine of the Appalachians is a migration corridor, seasonal raptor effect happens in that area especially.

What appears to be happening is ruffed grouse are declining from an unsustainable high in many Appalachian areas. As habitat disappears or degrades, that previous sweet spot of population is simply never to be seen again.
It sounds good to say "cut more timber" but the market is simply not always there plus, paper mills are not what they once were and neither is that industry. I suspect there are not enough mills to process the amount of timber necessary to raise the percentage of early successional growth to a level that is meaningful for the grouse...and the other critters which profit by that stage of growth.
Paper mills, new ones, are also a not-in-my-backyard industry as well.

Ohio, fwliw, has a paper mill and within 2-3 hours of it, great habitat with virtually no birds remaining from a one--time very high, viable population.
The newest of the many black hats tho is likely disease-based....not necessarily killing the birds outright but providing difficulty in pulling off successful hatches....weakening the birds is never a good thing.

Tough gig to be a ruffed grouse.....many issues face them and, they are a comparably weak bird without the ability to respond of, say, a pheasant.
Raise & Release and Trap & Transfer simply does not work with the ruffed grouse as with other species.
Which, I think, is a good thing only in nothing would be more sad and depressing than to find ruffed grouse being offered on a Preserve's menu. :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:36 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:36 pm
Posts: 1238
Location: Endless Mountains of PA
Gentlemen,

Yes Grouse do have a very dangerous life with many factors influencing their population. One point I do differ on is that Grouse are not a weak bird in any way. Because they can not be domesticated is not a weakness in any way. If Grouse were a weak bird, they would have perished from the earth long ago. In reality man and his foolish politics are the biggest modern enemy of the Grouse population. Taking away the grouses habitat, and placing it's predators on a special no kill list has endangered our Grouse population like nothing else. Even the diseases which Grouse have mostly become immune to are not as great a threat as the loss of environment and flying predators. Both are man made problems. GBE believed at one time we had to many Grouse hunters, this may have been true for a very short time, however in reality those times are long gone, we have lost over 60% of our active Grouse hunters in the last 8 years. In reality Grouse hunters are not good enough with their guns to really effect the over all Grouse population except in isolated areas. GBE did have a point about some states seasons being to long, adversely effecting the already low Grouse population. In WVa he may have had a point, mild weather late in the season in WVa allowed many more birds to be killed. However he knew the northern part of Pa and NY did not have this problem, because most times the bigger snows kept the Grouse hunters out of the woods for the most part.

There are many factors influencing our Grouse population, however incorrect forest management and flying predators are at the top of the list. Both man made problems effecting our Grouse populations.

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

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Last edited by Pine Creek/Dave on Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Jersey Closes Grouse Season for 2019
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:24 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:50 pm
Posts: 2887
Location: SE Ohio...where ruffed grouse were
As noted and explained why earlier, ruffed grouse are indeed a weak bird.

Raising them to the heights of birddom with the silly title of King or whatever does the bird no profit.
Neither does ignoring the differences within the species, the subspecies or as relates to regional differences delivered by blessings on that end.
The one size fits all manner of grouse management has been a jagger in the bird's side for decades.

The top 3 decline factors have been noted ad nauseaum......concentration with those three in the message board world is indeed very popular.
Better concentration should be on all the factors of decline as they exist, factors which increase in number as the bird slides down it's population curve.
The ruffed grouse deserves a look from that real world perspective and with a regional focus as to stabs at answers.
Timber industry issues, untouchable raptor laws and the early successional obstructionists are prominent in that real world and no message board advice or traditional smoke will dent their armor.

As david noted, grouse hunter numbers in many areas have declined...the point tho is so have the grouse numbers. Hunter additivity is of no consequence rangewide or season long...hunter additivity can be an issue on a covert basis or where february and, possibly, january are involved with, sometimes, minimal negatives of snow and terrain.
Management by thinking ruffed grouse hunters begins, always, on a covert basis. :idea:

It is unwise to make suggestions for any critter based upon the remaining best....unless all one cares about is his or her own hunting.

GBE has been gone for 22 years.....It is good that he can not see the corruption of his ideas and his life on message boards.



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