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 Post subject: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:21 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 176
I'm just an amatueur trap shooter and shoot in casual leagues. That being said, I shoot quite often and enjoy it. My education on the subject has been through self-research by reading books and watching online content. I know there are many variables, but one that has really helped my scores is making my hold point lower and closer to the roof of the house. I am a two eyed shooter, and I still hold a few inches over the roof, but for a while I was holding a foot or more over the roof and it seemed to hurt my scores. I'm not sure if my swing was too slow when holding high, or if I wasn't seeing the target clearly enough. I also noticed when I shoot at a certain club with trap houses buried in the ground, my scores were lower at first because I was holding too high before calling for the bird. Moral of the story, make a conscious effort to find the place that works best for you.




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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:36 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: Coolidge, Arizona
I'm a one eyed shooter because of my cross firing eyes and I have lowered my hold point to the top of the trap house.
I've also learned I need to develop a Quiet Eye and wait until I see the bird before swing to shoot it.
I tell myself "wait" just before calling "pull".


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:45 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7047
Location: Creston, Iowa
There is good advise for those not meeting personal expectations.

Another thing to remember..... is to set the (POI) point of impact for your handling. Do you stop gun movement at the shot or continue with follow through. About a 1 to 2 foot difference in needed POI. Holding lower on the house enhances gun movement and follow. Holding high reduces gun movement and restricts follow based on momentum. Shooting better by holding lower may be nothing more than matching your speed and follow to the guns POI.

There are a wide range of opinion and approach to targeting moving targets. In skeet and sporting you consciously lead the targets lateral path. In trap we set the guns POI to help with target raise and angles. New shooters tend to use lower POI and visually cover targets to break'em. Well seasoned trap shooters never lose sight of the target and points under targets, letting POI setting do the rest.

You only need to find your personal preferences and set the gun to compensate. Or...... pay no attention to preferences and learn where the gun places shot and consciously break'em. There will be less human error using your subconscious than conscious mind. Once the your subconscious is corrupted as in a flinch or freeze, your conscious mind can not fix it easily.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:44 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 176
maltzahn wrote:
Holding lower on the house enhances gun movement and follow. Holding high reduces gun movement and restricts follow based on momentum. Shooting better by holding lower may be nothing more than matching your speed and follow to the guns POI.

You only need to find your personal preferences and set the gun to compensate. Or...... pay no attention to preferences and learn where the gun places shot and consciously break'em. There will be less human error using your subconscious than conscious mind. Once the your subconscious is corrupted as in a flinch or freeze, your conscious mind can not fix it easily.

Maltz


I think this is part of it for me personally. I think the enhanced follow through and gun speed adds targets to my score. It also seems that even as a two eyed shooter there are times when the target is partially obscured behind my gun/hands as it leaves the house, resulting in surprise when the target suddenly appears and often results in a miss. I don't have any guns set with high POI because I also shoot a lot of sporting, 5 stand, and wingshooting, and I don't want to mess with multiple guns with different POI's.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:06 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7047
Location: Creston, Iowa
I think this is part of it for me personally. I think the enhanced follow through and gun speed adds targets to my score. It also seems that even as a two eyed shooter there are times when the target is partially obscured behind my gun/hands as it leaves the house, resulting in surprise when the target suddenly appears and often results in a miss. I don't have any guns set with high POI because I also shoot a lot of sporting, 5 stand, and wingshooting, and I don't want to mess with multiple guns with different POI's.[/quote]


AH, no one has ever done that before...... Call for the target when not ready for it. Focus on the job at hand. Can't worry about the wife finding out about the girl friend while shooting trap..... "I wasn't ready for that one"

Every shot requires your focus and awareness. Its called "discipline". Every shot the shooter must switch from thinking to vision just before calling for the target. Look for the target.....that is the discipline. If you can't master personal discipline, can't quit daydreaming on the line, there is a lower class you will shoot in at competitive events.

Maltz

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Have gun, will travel


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:36 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:53 pm
Posts: 21
Every shot requires your focus and awareness. Its called "discipline". Every shot the shooter must switch from thinking to vision just before calling for the target. Look for the target.....that is the discipline. If you can't master personal discipline, can't quit daydreaming on the line, there is a lower class you will shoot in at competitive events.

Maltz[/quote]

Well spoken Maltz, you have been a source of wisdom many times over the years and this is another one! Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:30 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Posts: 41
Life of Riley wrote:
maltzahn wrote:
Holding lower on the house enhances gun movement and follow. Holding high reduces gun movement and restricts follow based on momentum. Shooting better by holding lower may be nothing more than matching your speed and follow to the guns POI.

You only need to find your personal preferences and set the gun to compensate. Or...... pay no attention to preferences and learn where the gun places shot and consciously break'em. There will be less human error using your subconscious than conscious mind. Once the your subconscious is corrupted as in a flinch or freeze, your conscious mind can not fix it easily.

Maltz


I think this is part of it for me personally. I think the enhanced follow through and gun speed adds targets to my score. It also seems that even as a two eyed shooter there are times when the target is partially obscured behind my gun/hands as it leaves the house, resulting in surprise when the target suddenly appears and often results in a miss. I don't have any guns set with high POI because I also shoot a lot of sporting, 5 stand, and wingshooting, and I don't want to mess with multiple guns with different POI's.


I am a two eyed 78 y.o. shooter that got into trap late in life. While I have no desire to shoot registered targets I do love to shoot trap and sporting. My average is just shy of 23 and 24s and 25s are starting to come. I shoot a TM1 with a fixed stock at trap, a HTS and a MX8 at sporting and am very accustomed to reasonably flat shooting guns that shot where I look. On advice of others I tried a higher hold point and my scores went down. Went back to holding right at the top edge of the house and they went back up. I believe the added gun movement was needed to develop gun speed for the swing through method I use shooting trap.

PS: I also don't want to mess with with different POI's.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:50 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7047
Location: Creston, Iowa
castnblast.....welcome to the senior vet division. Im one as well. Believe me, it is a very competitive segment of organized trap shooting. We old guys not only have the time, but can afford to play the game. In most cases of "old guy", we shoot well based on experience of shot down the barrel.

Seems to be as many low POI shooters as high POI, with an average about 80/20% setting. Whatever trips your subconscious, it doesn't matter to the target. No one seems to experiment with POI until they fall into a slump and try to get out. After the try faze is diminished, we settle on some slight change and resume shooting old averages. We learn or understand stock and rib setting better with experience. Not just how it relates to our personal shooting, but how changes work in general. Giving us confidence in making changes.

Hope this doesn't happen to you, but if it does, don't be intimidated. simple!

Maltz

_________________
Have gun, will travel


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:58 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
I'm a one-eyed shooter and I hold about 2 feet over the house. I want minimal vertical movement of my shotgun. Visual & mental focus is the key. Yesterday, I was shooting well (cleaned the first 3 stations) until I lost my mental focus and held lower than normal and missed a straight-away by shooting under it. Next time around, I got the same straight-away but was holding to my normal high hold and broke it cleanly. I don't have any trouble seeing the targets and break them before the apex.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:26 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Posts: 41
maltzahn wrote:
castnblast.....welcome to the senior vet division. Im one as well. Believe me, it is a very competitive segment of organized trap shooting. We old guys not only have the time, but can afford to play the game. In most cases of "old guy", we shoot well based on experience of shot down the barrel.

Seems to be as many low POI shooters as high POI, with an average about 80/20% setting. Whatever trips your subconscious, it doesn't matter to the target. No one seems to experiment with POI until they fall into a slump and try to get out. After the try faze is diminished, we settle on some slight change and resume shooting old averages. We learn or understand stock and rib setting better with experience. Not just how it relates to our personal shooting, but how changes work in general. Giving us confidence in making changes.

Hope this doesn't happen to you, but if it does, don't be intimidated. simple!

Maltz


Thanks, Maltz.

We are snowbirds and it happens it is more convenient to shoot trap at our northern place and sporting down south. Being an old P-gun fan, I have had a 30" Mirage with matched 12/20 bbls for near 30 years, I bought a pretty nice 34" TM1 and really got into trap. On the way south this year I acquired a 33" HTS that really lit my Sportings Clays fire anew. Took me a while to wrap my head around the .024/.024 fixed chokes but now am convinced they are making me a better shooter. Mind you, I miss plenty but one thing I am sure of is chokes/ribs/POI etc., don't miss targets, it usually is the 6" between my ears that is the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:33 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2965
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
castnblast2 wrote:
I believe the added gun movement was needed to develop gun speed for the swing through method I use shooting trap.

PS: I also don't want to mess with with different POI's.


Good observation.
I also maintain a hold point at the level of the top edge of the trap house. I believe it does two things for me: enables an unrestricted view of the bird as quickly as possible. And increases the muzzle speed as I catch up to the clay, helping give proper lead.
There are a myriad of methods of shooting clay targets, and given enough time and practice, you can learn to shoot well with any of them. The goal is finding the method that works best for you early on. This will allow you to progress as quickly as possible.
Looks like you and the OP have found the method that works for you both.


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:12 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:32 pm
Posts: 7047
Location: Creston, Iowa
As Big Leo (Harrison) would say. "Son....You need to spend a little more time at the target"

With that thought in mind, I found his meaning while trying to get my averages up to expectation on several slump occasions.

Its not getting to the target and trying to aim the shot. Its not getting to the target too fast and out of control of your point. Its not starting the move early or late. Its not holding low or high.

It is staying in control from the start to placing the shot on target. So easy to say.eh!

Whatever enhances your staying in control of the point is right. Getting to the target in control of the move, trigger timing and follow. No jerks, jabs or corrections on the fly, just smooth moves and shot placement. When your there its like magic watching perfectly centered targets making dirt balls in the sky. Complete confidence in yourself and the equipment choices. A beautiful thing to watch or feel.

Maltz

_________________
Have gun, will travel


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 Post subject: Re: One thing that has made a big difference for me
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:32 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 1461
Location: Soda Springs, Id.
it's funny how when I got my eyes working I don't actually have a hold point.
I find myself pointing the gun at the middle of the house on one,,,, sorta off to the side on 3.
it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference since my eyes are all over focusing on the front of the house where the target will come from.




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