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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:03 pm 
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I'd pass on an Ohio made Ithaca friend. If you're used to quality checkering and well made barrels you'd not be happy. The new Ithaca company tries to make barrels lacking the proper tooling and they show it. belt sanded,ripple finish, and tube that stick out too far.....




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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:34 am 
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The reason why their barrels are polished differently is because the vent rib lugs are machined integral to the barrel. That makes polishing them in a different way than barrels that are fully cylindrical.

The advantage is that the lugs do not have to be silver soldered on, so the barrels stay straighter.

The disadvantage is having to polish around them.

The ones of us that did the shop tour saw this.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:53 pm 
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Dr Cook that is true, the ribs are cut directly on the barrel.

The real core issue is that Ithaca was taken over by a tool and die shop. Tool and die makers know their business, but not necessarily firearms. They make the barrels that way not because it added something super awesome to the gun, but rather that they lacked the machinery to make and solder on the ribs. They also lack the tooling and know how to roto forge barrels. It's a work around.

The same applies to the way they fit the choke tubes, they stick out a bit. A tool maker would reason that was a sensible way to fit a tube if it were a piece of tooling, but on a shotgun it looks terrible and is not how any other shotgun is done.

I also have my own fabrication shop (not shotguns obviously) and I have made work arounds myself in a similar concept for the same reasons, lacking certain machinery.

Yes, they make a big deal about the dovetails holding the rib on and how little the bore deviates from center. but lets face it, suppose you had a rib or bore that deviated .0001" in its entire length?? So what. It's a shotgun.

Anyway, i have owned 3 of the new Ithacas and yes I found them to be very smooth in operation. I just couldn't stand the ridiculous way the barrels were made, nor did I care for that crappy laser cut checkering. I am glad they're being made though, parts and service availability is always a plus.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:13 pm 
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The choke tubes are fitted "proud" of the muzzle so a
gunsmith can remove stuck tubes with out damage to the muzzle.
Remember there are owners that will clean the choke tube every ten years
weather they need it or not.
This was told to us during the shop tour.
I thought Ithaca was making use of the best of todays technology.

They have CNC machining center's and wire EDM machines.
But they still use hand finishing where needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:12 pm 
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The choke tubes on my Ohio Ithaca aren’t proud of the muzzle. I would have requested a return if they did (however I had not heard of that being to help the gunsmith ((which sounds iffy))).

Were the ribs soldered on in the old days? Does it matter whether the barrels are Roto forged now? It’s something that sounds nice but which method really produces a better barrel? As far as checkering, I’ll take laser cut over the ugly pressed checkering that was used for years.

I like my ‘49, ‘52 AND my ‘20. It’s nice be able to use steel and 3” shells though.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:47 pm 
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There is room for improvement in the Ithaca Model 37 as supplied, but not much. We are picky, and don't like the fact that the Briley chokes don't always fit perfectly flush with the muzzle, allowing a sliver of silver to jut out on the modified tube for example. It is cosmetic, not of functional importance as our patterning was able to show . . . but it isn't right. Flush chokes should be flush, or slightly recessed. Either Briley is making them too long, or Ithaca is ordering them too long. It needs to be fixed. We also found the Ithaca owner's manual, with overly dark pictures and lackadaisical text, to be one of the most poorly offered "manuals" we have seen in recent history. Please dispose of properly. While the basic stock dimensions have been changed to our satisfaction, the buttstock is a bit too thick for our tastes and could use a little slimming up overall-- particularly in the pistol grip area.

Worthy of note is the Ithaca's "solderless" barrels. Where in most shotguns, the barrel lugs that the rib attaches to are soldered or even glued on, the Ithaca barrels have integral, machined in lugs that are a work of art. While on the subject of barrels, it is also worth noting that the Ithaca Model 37 has a threaded receiver and threaded barrels, just like always. It is more costly to produce, of course, than the slip / slop barrels you find on most pumps and semi-autos. However, it is a superior mechanical lock-up that helps account for the exemplary accuracy found in Ithaca Deerslayer models, for example. You won't easily find a bolt action rifle with a barrel that isn't threaded and headspaced, and if you want your shotgun to shoot as accurately as a rifle slip-fits can be considered lacking. The Ithaca barrels are positively located by metal against metal, not slip-fit with a loose magazine cap against wood, plastic, or a welded-on barrel ring. This is part of the appeal of the Model 37, along with its "from a solid block of steel" receiver. It is all likely far stronger than it strictly needs to be, but that is part and parcel of what build quality is all about.

One of the benefits of dealing with a moderate-sized company like Ithaca is that the current Ithaca is well-suited to accommodate custom stock dimensions and upgraded wood. We've seen some of the high grade walnut examples from Ithaca-- and they are breathtaking. The tested gun was Ithaca's standard grade, still a very nice piece of walnut with distinct mineral streaks, the forearm and buttstock evenly matched in grain, color, and tone. As the importance of shotgun-fit is hard to ever-estimate, it will be a godsend to many shooters to learn that Ithaca is happy to take care of custom work right at the factory for them.

This was my impression back in 2008 and it hasn't changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 pm 
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Well for some reason I had a feeling my comment would draw Randy....I guess I can't say anything too critical here about an Ithaca or risk group flaming :)

Like I said, I'm glad they're making the guns still. Parts/service Etc.

When I asked why my tubes stuck out a "sliver" I was told by Ithaca Customer Service it was in case you drop the gun on the muzzle. So you'd dent the tube, not the barrel....Sounds good in the tool room, not really so classy...Anyway A minor point. Just a point to "point" out what I was trying to say about Ithaca. I could always trim the tubes down if it really bothered me.

Yeah, Laser cut is better than pressed that's true. However you're all overlooking the fact that the predecessor (Kings Ferry) cut checkering. Most of it was considerably better.
Not a major thing. On the modern guns I'd prefer no checkering over the laser cut, but that's only a custom order option. Minor gripe. But yeah, laser checkering is the future I guess..Cheaper, quicker, etc....Laser cut checkering is, to possibly most readers surprise, more brittle. The wood is "burned' so to speak by the laser and not only having not so sharp points, it can actually chip off fairly easily.

Like I said, what I don't like are the barrels. I like Ithaca 37s, but not the Ohio made barrels.

Everyone here is echoing the statements made by Ithaca. Randy Wakeman cut and pasted a page full of commercial salemanship in his reply to my post.... "Solderless Rib" "Super Straight" etc. Yes that's true on all points. The 37 is a work of art and cut from solid steel, yes true on all points, etc.

It just makes the barrels look a little crappy if I may say so. On a 1k+ Model 37, I'd prefer a little more class in finish. Ithaca barrels kinda remind me a little of a stack of doughnuts. Frankly they'd do better to buy barrels made by Mossberg and blue them in house a little deeper. (Made by Mossberg or someone else and to Ithaca prints).

Most all of your shotgun barrels are forged, roto forged/hammer forged, etc. Ithaca Ohio bores them from a piece of roundstock because that's the tooling they had on hand when they started making guns. A bored from stock barrel is not a bad thing in itself at all. I did notice however than 2 of mine had tool marks here and there in the bore and they did weigh more than a standard NY Ithaca (Forged) barrel. (A result of the method of manufacture). A hammer or roto forged barrel is stronger than a barrel cut from roundstock (assuming they are of the same wall thickness) but not a big deal here, the 37 is light enough to compensate for the slightly heavier barrels. The fact they cut the barrels on machines they had on hand, rather than soldering a rib on a hammer forged tube is what necessitates the dovetail w/fitted rib and the unfortunate amount of hand belt sanding and buffing they do to finish the barrel to shape. That's the work around. I am sure Beretta and Browning had a good laugh the first time they took a look at Ithaca's barrels...

If you do have your heart set of an Ohio Ithaca, I'd order one with no checkering and look for Hastings or NY Ithaca Barrel to go with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:10 pm 
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Gosh, I can't believe this is even a concern. Also, saying Mossberg should make Ithaca barrels is something I never thought I would hear.

I am not an Ithaca 'fan boy' but I wouldn't own another pump for my needs other than my Ohio 37. My only complaint is the chedditte hull extraction issue. That one, I just don't get but it isn't a show stopper.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:59 pm 
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No flaming here. I buy guns to please me and me alone. I had never heard that laser checkering was bad but now I understand the potential problems. My Benelli also is laser checkering (I think) and I’ll have to check the Citori.
It’s an interesting discussion

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:51 pm 
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slingworks wrote:
Randy Wakeman cut and pasted a page full of commercial salemanship in his reply to my post.... "Solderless Rib" "Super Straight" etc.


No, I didn't. It was from my 2008 review of the Ithaca M37 20 gauge. Know it? I wrote it. It wasn't completely glowing if you bothered to read it.

Quote:
Recently, happy to include the Ithaca Model 37 in a 20 gauge pump-action comparison, we found a "perfect storm" of sorts. The Model 37 as supplied had an overly heavy trigger, and failed to shoot to point of aim. The trigger was instantly rectified by Ithaca (apparently just two heavy triggers leaked out-- several dozen were caught before any shipment) but the stock issue was not quickly addressed, nor could it be. A good company can learn more from its "uhh-ohhs" than from its successes, though-- while some companies refuse to admit, much less address their problems. So, while the tested Model 37 was given a candid but unfavorable review, good things were in the works. That brings us to this review, the current production Ithaca Model 37 20 gauge equipped with a 26 inch barrel.

The tested Ithaca has a clean trigger, breaking crisply at about 5 pounds right out of the box. The stocks have gone back to the "original original" Ithaca specifications, now having far more drop. They now have 1.5 inches of drop at the comb and 2.25 inches of drop at the heel (the first tested 37 20 ga. was 1.4 DAC, 1.6 DAH). The fine-line checkering has been replaced by more standard cut checkering, and the pistol grip cap that was pewter now distinctively says "ITHACA" in white lettering on its black oval. The well-fitted Pachmayr Decelerator pad remains.

As soon as we through this Model 37 up to our shoulders, we knew we were going to like it. With no visible rib, it has as close to a perfect fit as can be hoped for, for most upland applications. The Ithaca has a 5 shot capacity, so the next move was to slide off the barrel and install the three shot plug to get us "Illinois pheasant legal." We grabbed Buddy, our impatient German Short-Hair, and headed to the field.

Concerned about point of impact based on our previous testing, there was a quick first visit to the patterning board. Using the supplied and installed Ithaca Plus Briley Modified choke, we printed patterns at 40 yards with a variety of pheasant medicine, finding that yes-- the Ithaca shot where it was supposed to, right on the money at 40 yards with beautifully centered patterns. The Winchester 1-5/16 oz. #5 shot three inch shells (#STH2035) patterned superbly and evenly with the Ithaca modified tube, so they were the shells that we hit the field with.

It wasn't that long until our pointer found a nervous rooster in the center of a thick waterway that hit the air at 40 yards cackling and hollering away along with a pair of hens. One shot from our Ithaca, and we had our first rooster. A couple of hours later, after flushing nothing but hens, our pointer locked up on our second rooster of the day, the one in the picture above, that we dropped at about 35 yards with a single shot. This gun hunts.

We felt that the recoil from this Ithaca was extremely manageable. Though patterning these heavy loads crouched over bag and cradle at the bench gave us quite a jolt, the recoil wasn't even noticed from a standing position in the field with cackling roosters getting up. The Model 37 cycled effortlessly and smoothly, and we were quickly back on bird for a second shot-- which, in both cases, wasn't needed. Our daily limit filled, it was back to the range for more patterning and cycling testing. We found the Model 37 to be an exceptionally smooth and slick cycling repeater. If you are accustomed to pump-actions, you'll find that the Ithaca practically works itself.

There is room for improvement in the Ithaca Model 37 as supplied, but not much. We are picky, and don't like the fact that the Briley chokes don't always fit perfectly flush with the muzzle, allowing a sliver of silver to jut out on the modified tube for example.
It is cosmetic, not of functional importance as our patterning was able to show . . . but it isn't right. Flush chokes should be flush, or slightly recessed. Either Briley is making them too long, or Ithaca is ordering them too long. It needs to be fixed. We also found the Ithaca owner's manual, with overly dark pictures and lackadaisical text, to be one of the most poorly offered "manuals" we have seen in recent history. Please dispose of properly. While the basic stock dimensions have been changed to our satisfaction, the buttstock is a bit too thick for our tastes and could use a little slimming up overall-- particularly in the pistol grip area.


As I use primarily extended chokes, I expect them to protrude from the muzzle. I'm not a fan of the new Ithaca choke system at all, and the buttstock comb could and should be slimmed up. What was announced and what happened are two different things.

Quote:
Just over a year ago, the new and current Ithaca Gun Company was established in Upper Sandusky, Ohio. David Dlubak and his investors sought to do things right, and to aggressively approach the firearms market. It seems that the new Ithaca understands that Model 37's, no matter how well made, can hardly support continued growth. In addition to the first-ever Model 37 28 gauge currently being tested by Ithaca and scheduled for a late 2009 early 2010 roll-out, we also have an all-American Ithaca O/U scheduled for end of the year 2010, a Model 37 16 gauge scheduled for 4th quarter 2010, and eventually a made in USA Ithaca Side-by-Side to follow in 2011-2012.


The M37 28 gauge made it, but the promised O/U (Phoenix) and Ithaca SxS models didn't. The 16 gauge M37 was produced, but discontinued due to lack of sales.

Ithaca is a small shotgun company and it looks like they want to keep it that way.

Image

Ithaca also makes 1911's , my example is above, https://ithacagun.com/product/1911-45-a ... -hand-fit/ . . . and they are still in production.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:36 am 
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Yeah perhaps I'm a bit sharp on the barrel topic. I'm not a big fan of Mossberg, having been forced to hunt with them in my youth (poverty). Mossbergs are pretty rugged as far as that goes, kind of like the AK of American shotguns.

No doubt there are others that can make barrels. (Is Verney Carron still in business??)

As far as Mossberg goes, it is a very large producer of barrels for other OEM makers. Especially of RIFLE barrels. Chances are the off brand AR-15 you own has a Monsterberg made barrel on it. Mossberg can (at least last time I spoke to them) make barrels to order and to your specification AND they don't have to look like, well, Mossberg 500 barrels.

Actually Randy I did read your review, back when you wrote it. In fact I read and watch a great many of your reviews. 90% of the time I come away feeling like either I maybe learned a little something or saved money. I was referring to the cherry picked section that you cut and pasted here as "commercial salesmanship" because to be frank, the way you presented it, it was.

I have yet to see an actual Ithaca 1911, but I have a feeling they're a better gun from the getgo. From the looks of it, it appears they've hired someone that knew something about the 1911 from day 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:55 pm 
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slingworks wrote:
Dr Cook that is true, the ribs are cut directly on the barrel.

The real core issue is that Ithaca was taken over by a tool and die shop.


No, Sir, the ribs are not cut on the barrel: only the risers are. The rib slides on and off quickly. While the Marshalls did buy the financially distressed Ithaca, Dave Dlubak bought Ithaca from the financially distressed Marshalls.

https://www.dlubak.com/

Quote:
Dlubak Glass is the largest US processor, recycler, and broker for automotive plate and windshield glass; largest US processor and recycler for lighting industry glass.

We are also the largest US processor and recycler of television and PC monitor glass and one of the largest recyclers of window plate and container glass.​

Dlubak Glass recycles approximately 70% of the nation's recyclable automotive glass and sells nearly 300 tons per day of recycled glass to the nation's fiberglass industry.


Dlubak Glass has five plants located in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, Texas, and Oklahoma, in addition to numerous depots throughout the US, Canada and Mexico. The company’s five plants are fully permitted and licensed for glass recycling, and serve their customers world wide, with sales volumes in excess of 400,000 tons per year. Ithaca is a very, very small part of the picture. Very small.

Image

For various reasons, the Phoenix O/U (above, from 2010), new Ithaca SxS models never made it to production. While Ithaca bolt action rifles are in the Ithaca catalog, they too are not in regular production. A M37 with AAA wood goes for $1,749.00. That price level takes it out of the mainstream. Even a standard "A" grade M37 is $1199. As a result, their clients are generally small numbers of M37 loyalists.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:32 pm 
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I'm not understanding as to why a former tool and die maker can not learn and or be trained to be a good fire arms machinist. My understanding is that they actually ripped out the concrete in the machining area so that they could re pour thicker concreate to cut down on vibration. The did try some investment cast parts like bolt slides and where not happy with the results. All machined parts where made out of billet hence the above average price tag for a pump gun. Then again if you compared pricing to an 870 Wingmaster and not a 870 Express the price difference was not much. In addition I strongly suspect that if Ithaca Upper Sandusky really wanted to solder ribs on they would have invested in the proper equipment. When we where on the tour a few years ago it did not appear that investing in equipment was an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:47 pm 
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Yes I misspoke when I said rib, I clearly meant riser. I guess you caught me there on that slip up like any Master Debater would lol.

I know about Mr Glass Mogul. I'm really not sure why you made an effort to point that out? Anyone who's typed Ithaca on Google has read about him.

Now, don't make me go after a blue crayon Randy.

I'll give you an example you can follow when I say "Tool and Die Shop" This is an example, I am not detailing the exact mechanisms of Dave Dublak.

I have a relative that's a master tool and die maker. He works for a major corporation that makes a certain item for the auto industry. Like I just said, he's a tool and die maker. He works in the "Tool, Die and R&D division of the outfit that mass produces these items for the auto industry. They have this tool and die division to make the jigs, fixtures as well as some R&D work and replacement parts for machinery, etc.

Now, suppose this corporation purchases the rights to make a specialty alternator. (in place of shotguns here), but, remember, this corporation we're speaking of produces rubber items. Now, they wish to produce small runs of these alternators, but lack any technical package other than a set of drawings. what do you think they might do? They'd probably expand and recruit from the tool and die guys in house, both to work out how the parts are made, and actually set up to make them from the machinery and tooling they have on the floor. That's a pretty good possibility, especially, if we're told they have a fully equipped machine shop with some great machining centers.

Ithaca is really no different here than this hypothetical alternator production. Just substitute the name Ithaca.

Anyway, there is not much point in continuing further here, I wanted to let the OP know why I don't like the barrels on the new M37 and I've already done it. He may like what he orders. Everyone likes something different.


Last edited by slingworks on Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:55 pm 
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1977Cutcher I see no reason why a T&D guy cant' make a great gunbuilder, never said they couldn't. I would imagine a Tool and Die man that had a passion for fine firearms and how they should both look and feel would be a combination to beat.


Seems like I remember the very first new Ithaca shotguns had a stock that really didn't fit any living human properly? Maybe designed by someone that didn't really understand how a shotgun should fit? (Maybe, for example, reinforcing what I've said here?) Anyway, just a vague recollection for another time.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:07 pm 
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1977cutcher wrote:
I'm not understanding as to why a former tool and die maker can not learn and or be trained to be a good fire arms machinist.


Is this a hypothetical? The current Ithaca, for the last 14 years, has made high quality M37's, in small batches, and has successfully kept the Ithaca story alive. No one else came close, not the original Ithaca, not King Ferry, not the aborted move to Auburn, not the Marshall family. Where everyone else failed, Dave has succeeded for the last 14 years.

If you want a good-looking M37, Ithaca can provide it. If not for Dave, Ithaca would be part of the scrap heap of history. I'd call that pretty good.

Image
Image
Image

Current M37's bag wild pheasants, wild turkey, etc., and I've enjoyed them.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:45 am 
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Randy I think perhaps we have a miss understanding. The point I was trying to make was that a group of people who started out forming metal to exacting tolerances for dies are more than capable to make gun parts. To date we have purchased 3 Upper Sandusky 37's, and one refurbished and one 1911. I am very much a fan of the Upper Sandusky folks and am impressed by their quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:32 pm 
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The M37 is 95 year old "technology," if it qualifies as any sort of technology today. It isn't rocket science. Steel takes far more machining time than alloy and plastic, so those looking for the cheapest thing that goes bang aren't likely to be drawn to a new M37. Ithaca today is essentially a custom gun shop, making a total of 549 shotguns in 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:48 am 
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1. I meant the risers, not the ribs, that was a non-complete statement for me. I saw EXACTLY how the barrels are made and polished, how the receivers are made. How other parts are made.

Anyone that actually looks at a ribbed shotgun can see what is what and what would be machined. It is just a sidetracking attack to jump on me because I wasn't exactly dotting the i specific.

I spent many years in all kinds of shops before I switched over to writing commercial software for major corporations and have extensive metal working knowledge.

2. As far as Tool & Die makers not knowing stuff, BS. Working with metal is working with metal. Ithaca does what they do, the way they do because the old way would be far too expensive.

As it is, they don't sell enough 37's to pay for the shop, the machinery, the wages on and on. While we were there, I saw machines spitting out parts for other companies. I didn't get too nosy, but one machine looked like it was cutting AR16/M15 bolts. Regardless, they were making parts for other companies to pay the bills.

Look up the production numbers, multiply that by the cost of the guns and see if the final figure is enough to keep a medium sized company afloat.

The other option is that Ithaca Gun Co is a money losing tax write off for the guy that owns it.

Their practices and procedures allow non-highly skilled people to produce guns. Once the machines are programmed and appropriate quality control jigs/figures/practices, measuring jigs/fixtures/practices are put in place, non-machinist people can run the machines. All it takes is one or 2 skilled people to keep an eye on the place.

As long as the machinery is not wearing out and the tooling doesn't wear, the machines just keep cutting the parts. The software is controlling the machining not the people.

Back to the rib risers. The barrels are turned on a machining center. The rib risers are left as a larger diameter "ring" which is then machined into the form. The non-riser part of that material has to be cut and blended into the rest of the barrel. That leaves differences in the material as the process of cutting it away doesn't leave the same end result as a turning operation does.

There are far less processes that have to be done by machining them right to the barrel. You don't have to have a fixture to hold the individual risers in place while they are heated up enough to cause the silver solder to melt.

All the while keeping them in alignment for the rib material itself to slide onto.

The heat required to melt silver solder is enough to warp the thin wall barrels. Straightening a warped barrel is labor intensive and takes a skilled hand. As good as I was with the machines, I tried straightening a tube once and threw my hands up in defeat. It is a skill that is acquired. A person just doesn't do it on the first try or ten. It was less expensive for the shop to buy a new piece of material than to pay me to keep trying to do something that I wouldn't ever do again.

As far as Roto-forging goes, that was a material and cost saving methodology. It is far less expensive to load a blank onto the forging die and have the machine pound it into the shape of a barrel with the bore finished than it is to deep hole drill a piece of bar stock and then turn it to shape.

Here is a video to watch. Notice the difference in the size of the blank, especially lengthwise -vs- the end result

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oALJDh43K3I

By machining them the way they do, they didn't have to also invest in other machinery. They could do it with what they had.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ithaca still making guns?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:09 pm 
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Posts: 27748
Location: Plainfield, IL
drcook wrote:
The heat required to melt silver solder is enough to warp the thin wall barrels..


Where did you come up with that whopper? Silver solder melts at 840 degrees or so. That isn't remotely close to warp barrels. Smokeless powder itself burns at 3200 - 3400 F.



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