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 Post subject: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:33 pm 
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For those of you who might be interested in a comparison of these shells but haven't been following the "Remington Gun Club Question" tread on the Trap forum, I though I would post my findings here.

Remington Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro 27

After purchasing two boxes of each load, five shells were sacrificed to examine the internal components and the other 45 shells of each were shot at the patterning board to evaluate their performance potential.

LOADS EVALUATED
12ga Remington Gun Club Target load with 1 1/8-ounce of #7 ½ lead shot at a listed 1,200 fps.
12ga Remington Premier STS Light Handicap load with 1 1/8-ounce of #7 ½ lead shot at 3 DE (1,200 fps).
12ga Remington Premier Nitro 27 Handicap load with 1 1/8-ounce of #7 ½ lead shot at a listed 1,235 fps.

INTERNAL COMPONENTS
Hulls
Gun Club / “One-Piece STS Hull”, lightly ribbed green hull, silver steel head.
STS / “Premier STS Body”, smooth metallic-green hull, brass head.
Nitro / “Premier Unibody “, smooth metallic-gold hull, brass head.

Primers
Gun Club / “Premier STS Primer Mix”, it looks like an R209P primer.
STS / “#209 Primer”, it looks like an R209P primer.
Nitro / “Premier R209P STS Primer”.

Powders
Gun Club / Medium-sized gray flakes (16.8 grains, + or - .45 grains).
STS / Medium-sized gray flakes with green flakes (17.4 grains, + or - .15 grains).
Nitro / “New Ball Powder”, fine ball powder (19.1 grains, + or - .15 grains).

Wads
Gun Club / “Power Piston” RXP style wad.
STS / FIG8S wad.
Nitro / TGT12S wad.

Lead Shot
Gun Club / “Hard Gun Club Shot”, #7 ½ ( 375 pellets / 485.5 grains).
STS / “High Antimony Hard Lead Shot”, #7 ½ (408 pellets / 492.2 grains).
Nitro / “High Antimony STS Magnum Shot”, #7 ½ (420 pellets / 503.1 grains).

When I weighed out 492.2 grains of shot (1 1/8-ounce) and then counted the pellets to establish the “true” 1 1/8-ounce pellet count by weight, the Gun Club’s came in at 380 pellets/1 1/8-ounce (492.0 grains), the STS’s came in at 408 pellets/1 1/8-ounce (exactly 492.2 grains), and the Nitro’s had 411 pellets/1 1/8-ounce (491.8 grains). It would appear from the true pellet count that the pellets in the Gun Club’s are of a lower antimony content than the STS’s and Nitro’s. This would account for some of the lower pellet count in the Gun Club’s payload. The STS’s and Nitro’s must be very similar in antimony content since their true pellet count numbers were very close. Knowing that pellet size also influences pellet counts, I checked the diameter on 10 pellets from each load to get an average pellet size and all were within + or - .005" of the expected .095" diameter for #7 ½ lead shot.

PATTERNING PERFORMANCE
Of course, what matters most is how they perform so here are some pattern numbers from a 12-gauge Browning Citori w/ 28" Invector-Plus barrels and Briley flush chokes to allow for performance comparisons (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

40 YARDS / LM
Gun Club / 216 (58%)
STS / 277 (68%)
Nitro / 267 (64%)

40 YARDS / M
Gun Club / 236 (63%)
STS / 293 (72%)
Nitro / 302 (72%)

40 YARDS / IM
Gun Club / 260 (69%)
STS / 295 (72%)
Nitro / 307 (73%)

40 YARDS / LF
Gun Club / 263 (70%)
STS / 313 (77%)
Nitro / 309 (74%)

40 YARDS / F
Gun Club / 272 (73%)
STS / 321 (79%)
Nitro / 321 (76%)

As far as the GCs are concened, they just could not keep up with either the STSs or the Nitros when it came to putting pellets in the pattern at 40 yards with any of my chokes. Heck, the GCs with the full choke could only get close to the LM choke performance of the STSs and Nitros. The GCs did however perform up to factory standards for the choke, i.e., + or - 5% for F / 70%, IM / 65%, M / 60%, etc.

The STSs and Nitros were pretty much a dead heat, there just isn't enough difference between the STS and Nitro raw pattern numbers to worry about. Through the LM and LF chokes the STS load put a few more pellets in the patterns, through the M and IM chokes the Nitros put a few more pellets inside the pattern, and with the F choke they both had the exact same average pattern number.

The STSs were a little more efficient than the Nitros since they did this with fewer in-shell pellets which resulted in generally higher pattern percentages. The LM, LF and F chokes all registered a little higher pattern percentage with the STSs than the Nitros, they both had the same pattern percentage with the M choke, and the Nitros were one percent better with the IM.

So, unless you just like or want the Nitros gold hulls for reloading the STS load is providing the same level of patterning performance in my gun anyway.

Well, there you have it. A straight-up apples-to-apples comparison of the three loads. Remember, I'm just the messenger so you can be the judge.

Good luck.




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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Dang!! Very impressive and quite a comprehensive test. You certainly didn't accomplish this in 20 minutes!! Probably one of the best shell performance reports that I have ever seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Nicely done, Joe Hunter... consider posting this in the reloading forum too. This type of complete report may become a standard for those wishing to document their reloads, too.

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Last edited by DrMike on Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:55 pm
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Location: S.E. PA.
Thanks for posting your results! I often wondered if there was an actual difference in the shells or you just paid more for a pretty hull and some brass.

I've never shot any STS or Nitro shells, but I have shot Gun Clubs a few times. I always end up with them after they have already been fired.

One question: Did you happen to notice any difference in recoil from one type to another. From the powder wieght, it would seem that the GC uses a faster burning powder than the other two. I don't like GCs' due to the recoil they have IMO. Maybe it's all in my head.

Never the less, nice job!


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:07 pm
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Location: Riesel, TX
{hs# Excellent report. I've always wondered about this. My question that is now running through my mind is why? Is it the lead, wad, powder, FPS. Also, as alluded to in one of the previous posts, how long did this take you. Excellent information, great job, bravo. Thanks for the info.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Location: Indiana
Excellent report Joe! For selfish reasons how about a test of the Nitro Sporting Clays 1 oz.
7 1/2's? It would be interesting to see the patterning results vs. 1 1/8 loads. Thanks for the great info. Eric


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
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Thanks for the positive comments!

C-N -- Yes it did take some time to get all this done, about 3 months. I jumped into the trap forum thread in early March. After purchasing the loads, opening and counting the internal components didn't take all that long but the patterning did! On one particularly nice day I shot about 80, it took another session or two before I was done shooting the patterns. Of course, the real time consuming activity comes during the counting phase. I take my pattern sheets to the house so I can take my time counting, calculating and recording.

SG -- No, I don't really remember noticing a difference in recoil. I shot most of the GCs and STSs in one day so if there was much difference I would think I would have noticed it then but after so many shots I just can't remember.

DrM -- I guess I could do that if you think others there would be interested.

F&T -- Nothing really new but I think the quality (mostly hardness) of the shot plays the largest role in improving patterns. The other components can make a difference but the shot is most important.

WM21 -- Unfortunately, the comparisons are never ending! I have shot the WAA12 1 oz #7 1/2 load though. Here's how the F did and maybe I'll post more numbers at another time.

12 GA 2 3/4" – WINCHESTER AA XTRA-LITE TARGET LOAD
1 OZ #7 ½ LEAD (344 PELLETS) 1,180 FPS
40 YARDS / F / 275 (80%)
Heck, it outshot the GC load / F @ 40 yards.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Wow! That's a really comprehensive test and report. Thanks for posting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Really nice test. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do it.

What I find most interesting is the percentage differences. Not from shell to shell, but from choke to choke. Very little change from LM to Full. Did you use the patterning software to analyze these patterns? Have you done any statistics beyond what you've posted above?

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:54 am 
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Thank you for the write-up.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:01 am 
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Nice test. The time you took to do this test sure paid off. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:23 am 
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Joe, you always do good work.

The difference is even greater than percentages alone indicate:

40 YARDS / F
Gun Club / 272 (73%)
STS / 321 (79%)
Nitro / 321 (76%)



Pattern percentages sometimes amuse, but what is going on here is more than the pattern %'s indicate. 18% more pellets in the circle is a very significant improvement; 49 more pellets isn't trivial.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:00 am 
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Thanks for the report. Great work!


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:38 am 
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Thanks!

I hate patterning over and over; I'm grateful when someone else is willing to do it! :)

Sadly, I have not been able to find STS shot since the lead went way up. Not too long ago, I was paying $15/bag for the stuff, and loading STS quality shells for $3.00 a box or less. Then it went to $20, still not bad. Then, it disappeared. Since then, I haven't seen it at all, for any price.

Does anyone know if STS shot is available anywhere (and/or for a price that is more attractive than just buying the metallic green shells pre-loaded)?

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:57 am 
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I'm glad this info has been helpful, thanks.

Rastoff -- I often find only small increases in pattern numbers from Mod through Full. No patterning software was used and I didn't do any stat work beyond what I showed. Are there other stats that would be helpful to show?

Randy -- I agree that is a significant increase in pellet strikes. And yes as you know, pattern percentages are a measure of load/choke efficiency not effectiveness. The raw pattern numbers are what's most important.

BarryD -- It may be available at the Remington Gun Club near Lonoke, Ark.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:11 pm 
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I'm not a statistician, but I have done some statistics. There are a couple of tools that could be run to show that the results you got were really significant or just appear significant.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter. It would just be one of those loose ends. There is some analysis software. I'll see if I can find it.

Found it! Shotgun-Insight: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/intro.html

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:37 pm 
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So, Joe: Bottom line --hard shot , moderate velocity = good patterns. :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Really great!! Thanks for the hard work.

I find it interesting that Remington uses three different wads. Any speculation on why a difference between the nitro and sts loads? Either Reminton thinks one is better for patterns, or perhaps the nitro uses a more or less dense powder and so it is a space issue? Perhaps they think one is better for ball powder?


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:27 pm 
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It is probably completely due to what runs best thru their machines with the other ingredients., or the set-up of those particular machines on that particular line.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Club vs STS vs Nitro
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Rastoff -- I've seen that before and it seems very interesting but I haven't committed the time to figuring out how to use it. It sure splits a lot more hairs than I did. I'll give it a little more study.

sera -- I would agree, nothing really new about that news is there.

mbob -- I have no idea why they (Remington) do what they do but I think your's and C-N's explinations with a little marketing department spin are as good as any.




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