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john1911

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Seems like every time a noob shows up in the Basement, someone will advise them to take a class. How do you determine which class under which instructor?

Is a class at Thunder Ranch better than a class at "Jim Bob's Tactical Gunfighting and Truck Driving School"?

What are the credentials of instructors that make them qualified to teach me how I should fight?

What real world experience should a wannabe instructor have in order to teach others?

No doubt that there are valuable classes with knowledgeable teachers out there, how do you separate them from the Mall Ninja Universities? Seems like more classes are opening all the time. What are these guys? Training junkies opening their own playhouses? Viable training opportunities? How do you separate the wheat from the chaff?
 
john1911 said:
How do you determine which class under which instructor?
Great questions all, and I too will be interested in the answers, but I can't help you with them.

john1911 said:
Is a class at Thunder Ranch better than a class at "Jim Bob's Tactical Gunfighting and Truck Driving School"?
Man, I would be in hog heaven if I could learn to gunfight and drive a truck all at the same place! :lol: :lol:
 
870_gunman said:
While its pricey , I think blackwater offers vehicular courses, driving, and shooting from and at moving targets
Didn't Thunder Ranch offer a course where you shot from a helicopter?

A lot on how I pick a school is what the mindset of the school is. What is the curriculum like? Is it hours of the same drills? Is this training real world valid?

An instructor first and foremost MUST be able to instruct. An instructor who was Special Forces, SWAT, ect for X number of years who CAN'T effectively teach the information is worthless as an instructor.

Word of mouth helps, too. Talk to folks who have been to a school you might me looking at.

Personally, I've trained with Tactical Response (and am scheduled for two more courses this year) and Suarez International. There are a slew of instructors that I love to train with based on their reputations alone. Pat Rogers being one of them.
 
john1911 said:
Seems like every time a noob shows up in the Basement, someone will advise them to take a class. How do you determine which class under which instructor?
I shoot with several of the instructor's graduates to establish some sort of baseline. An apple generally doesn't fall far from the tree.

Is a class at Thunder Ranch better than a class at "Jim Bob's Tactical Gunfighting and Truck Driving School"?
Possibly. Jim Bob might be a BTDT ***-kicker and name taker, and your instructor at Blackwater might have had his instructor creds minted yesterday*.

What are the credentials of instructors that make them qualified to teach me how I should fight?
As far as I'm concerned there are none. Good instructors/teachers may never have been in combat. Being in combat doesn't automatically qualify someone to teach, either.

What real world experience should a wannabe instructor have in order to teach others?
See above.

No doubt that there are valuable classes with knowledgeable teachers out there, how do you separate them from the Mall Ninja Universities?
Seriously: Shoot a bit with their alumni (multiples, because a sample of one sucks). Look at their retention rate. Do the first-time students come back for advanced classes? Do the classes fill up with BTDT guys, or keyboard commandos (I would probably qualify as the latter). What is the school's/instructor's reputation with folks who have had actual experience in classes?

Seems like more classes are opening all the time. What are these guys? Training junkies opening their own playhouses? Viable training opportunities?
Supply and demand. Instructor's leaving an established school and starting their own. A need for viable .mil and LE training due to the GWOT that has spilled over into the "civillian" world... and those are just the reasons for good instructor's to be popping up.

How do you separate the wheat from the chaff?
My criteria ranges from reputation to results. Methods and doctrine sometimes enter into the equation (i.e., I'm not going to spend my training dollar learning the "Axis Re-Lock" stuff).

Bottom line, if you do your homework, the list of top-shelf private combatives instructors that specialize in firearms training is not a large one. They all know each other, and there is a crossover with many of the methods, most of the doctrine, and some of the students.

Choose from that list, and it's damn near impossible to go wrong with whatever your choice is.

*I'm not picking on Blackwater, just throwing a name out there.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I'm not looking for any training at this time, just trying to wrap my head around the idea. I'm not interested in being a "door-kicker" or a "tango chaser". Not looking for "360* kill houses" or shooting from moving vehicles. Won't fly so the helicopter is out.

I just can't grasp the concept of paying goodly sums of money to someone to teach me how to fight with a gun. Especially when this person may not have ever fired a round in defensive situations in their life. What makes their method worth $XXX? What qualifies them?

I'm not trying to start trouble, just having a hard time understanding the whole training thing.
 
john1911 said:
I just can't grasp the concept of paying goodly sums of money to someone to teach me how to fight with a gun.
"You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to the level of training you have mastered".

The above is a truism about how we perform under the stress of our "fight or flight" instinct. What you are paying for is to be taught how to be your own first responder, and how to do it well enough that you can't get it wrong.

Along those lines, in a car accident; would you rather have a guy who got all his medical knowledge off the internet with zero practical application show up to treat your injuries, or somebody that has professional training, who has done "ride alongs" for fun and practical experience with the local rescue squad, and who has actually performed the necessary assessments and treatment required under the stress of realistic scenario-based simulations?

The former is someone that has no firearms/combatives training. The latter is an alumni of a tactical training school, and what many of us strive to become.

Especially when this person may not have ever fired a round in defensive situations in their life. What makes their method worth $XXX? What qualifies them?
Again, as far as a "qualifier" for an instructor, there are no guarantees. While it would be natural to assume that a BTDT guy can teach you things that will save your life, it may be that the guy sucks as a teacher, and just happened to be VERY lucky.

Modern firearms training methods and doctrines are fairly well established, with individual instructor's adding their own (or their school's) "tweaks" to them. They are used because they work in combat. They are "tools in a toolbox", and the smart student recognizes that the more he/she has, the better off they are.

This would be the reason that many folks take classes from different schools/instructors.

I'm not trying to start trouble, just having a hard time understanding the whole training thing.
It's understandable. Until I took my first class, I didn't really get it either. I started because the wife and I decided to buy a couple guns that neither of us had a lot of experience with (AR15s). A basic carbine class turned into what has become a profound change in mindset, driving the two of us to pursue professional instruction in any number of areas including combatives and basic medicine.

Some guys take up Golf. Some couples go ballroom dancing. We go to shooting classes and take medical training.

The world can be a dangerous place. We probably wouldn't be here discussing tactical firearms if that weren't the case. Taken to it's logical conclusion, it's not hard to understand that Golf or ballroom dancing won't help any of us survive if something bad should happen, while firearms training just might.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
FMD said:
Taken to it's logical conclusion, it's not hard to understand that Golf or ballroom dancing won't help any of us survive if something bad should happen, while firearms training just might.
But golf or ballroom dancing is something you can quantify. You can see the results and any improvement.

To see the results of tactical firearms training, you're basically going to have to engage in a gunfight. I've avoided this particular activity for 35 years, don't really want to start now.
 
john1911 said:
But golf or ballroom dancing is something you can quantify. You can see the results and any improvement.
Dunno about your gun, but mine makes little holes in paper. If I get through an evolution and don't have a single hole in the paper, then I have room to improve. :wink:

To see the results of tactical firearms training, you're basically going to have to engage in a gunfight. I've avoided this particular activity for 35 years, don't really want to start now.
Try it. You might just learn something about yourself:

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/course.php?courseID=19
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
FMD said:
Dunno about your gun, but mine makes little holes in paper. If I get through an evolution and don't have a single hole in the paper, then I have room to improve. :wink:
Mine makes little holes in paper too (they're just not very close together). I'll not argue the fact that my marksmanship could stand a lot of improvement.

What I don't understand is the variety of doctrines taught. Three different instructors may teach three widely different actions for the exact same situation. Short of attending every class offered, how do you determine which action suits your specific situation?
 
That part is on you. You have to figure out how you think you want to fight and find a school that can teach that to you.

People are all different. Some people choose kung fu and some choose hapkido. It doesn't mean that one is better than another. There is no garantee that you will really "click" with the methods taught in your first training class. You may have to take a second or third class with a different school, and decide which methods you find better for you.

I was self taught with my shotgun, and I had a crappy teacher. So I signed up for a Basic Tactical Shotgun class to learn how to effeciently run my shotgun. I learned some techniques, I learned some drills to practice.

Many instructors take classes from 20 different schools and then form their own methods based on what they thought worked best from each.

The name escapes me but I read an article about a guy that wanted to learn to run an AK47. At the time (80s I believe), people were trying to run them like an m16. He went to some schools, talked to former Russian Military guys and developed his own methods of what he thought worked and was practical.
 
john1911 said:
What I don't understand is the variety of doctrines taught. Three different instructors may teach three widely different actions for the exact same situation.
John, I think you might be surprised to learn that almost all the schools teach the same tactics. Really, how many ways can you use a hammer? :wink:

The differences in instructors instead lie in the teaching methodology (do they hit you with a huge amount of info, letting you decide what to practice - or do they spoon feed you little bits at a time, forcing you to repeat an action until you can't get it wrong?), the employment of the skills necessary to make hits on target (Squared stance or bladed stance? Thumbs up or thumbs forward? Slingshot or slide release?), and the mindset/perspective of the particular school/instructor (are they teaching from a SWAT officer, beat cop, grunt, HSLD operator, civilian contractor, or "Joe Citizen" standpoint?).

The reputable schools largely teach the same tactics.
The methodology of how fast you progress through the skills needed to employ those tactics will vary from there.
The doctrines associated with the skills needed to employ those tactics may differ slightly from school to school.
The perspective and experience of the particular school/instructor will affect the doctrines and teaching methodology.

ALL of them will be better than not taking any training at all.

Picking a few instructors I know, or know enough of to speak somewhat intelligently of regarding style/methodology/mindset and their "doctrines":

Four beginner students each take a basic carbine class from the following list: Pat Rodgers, Greg Sullivan, James Yeager, and Gabe Suarez*.

The two students that take the Pat's and Greg's class might learn a basic squared stance first, will learn why it's a stable platform, and will then be drilled on movement to cover utilizing that platform. In James' and Gabe's class, movement to cover might be stressed first, with the natural result being that the student is forced into a "squared" stance without the instructor saying "place your feet like this".

All four will be taught proper sight alignment and trigger press, and if their rifle goes down or runs dry inside of 25M, to transition to their pistol. All of them will learn that it is important to Fire on their target, Asses the fighting ability of that threat afterward, Scan for any other threats around them, and then Tac-load their gun to stay in the fight.

So all four students learned to move behind cover, employed the same skills to get there, and were drilled on making hits while doing it all. If their primary guns jammed, they knew to go to their blaster. Each was taught the "Wyatt Protocol" (F.A.S.T. above).

Four students, four different teachers, very similar results.

Again, there is very little practical difference in the tactics and skillsets that good instructors teach. Each has their strong suits, their detractions, their core beliefs (mindset) and their quirks. One might prefer "Sul" as a ready position, while the other teaches "Norte". In the end, and after you've done your due diligence and homework, it's a matter of personal preference. Who do I want to work with? Am I available to take that particular class? What am I willing to spend?

Short of attending every class offered, how do you determine which action suits your specific situation?
There is something to be said for taking classes with instructors that teach things a bit differently than the rest, but if someone is teaching a radically different set of tactics and skillsets, I'd be wary. Progress in "tactical" training is a creeping, crawling thing that evolves over time. Good instructors adapt, some schools stagnate, but it's the "New and improved! Radically different! Will make you shoot like a Delta SEAL!" stuff that should be avoided like the plague.

In other words, I believe your perception is not aligned with reality. Drop any single student from any of the reputable schools together and chances are that there will be more similarities than differences in the way they address a threat. We might vehemently disagree on any number of the finer points, but the core skill is employing a specific tool to do a specific job.

*Apologies to all. I know I've oversimplified, but I'm sure you understand why.
 
John, you've been given some excellent answers here; despite your seeming unwillingness to believe them.

Bottom line is, structured training shows you proven methods to do things; fire your weapon accurately, manipulate it properly, use tactics, WHAT tactics to use in a given scenario, etc., etc.

Nothing is quite so amusing as to chat with an "expert" at the public range, then watch him if/when his weapon malfunctions. Malfunction clearance techniques are uncomplicated; but if you've never been shown them, or more importantly, never practiced them UNDER STRESS (such as in a training class against the clock), odds are you will look like a monkey trying to copulate with a football; with about as much success. Or, you will stand there looking at your piece like a hog looking at a wristwatch.

Just using that as an example; not talking about you personally.

Not too many folks teach shotguns anymore, due to a much larger interest in the "tactical carbine". One glaring exception is Louis Awerbuck, who is a renowned trainer from 'way back. In fact, he is doing a defensive shotgun class here in Baton Rouge in May.

However, the "combat shotgun" seems to be enjoying a revival of interest among the various internet forums. If that trend continues, I can promise you that more trainers will offer shotgun classes.

Yes, you do have to be choosy. As Clint Smith, one of the most respected trainers in the world, says; "Anyone can hang out a shingle."

But if you simply cannot grasp WHY structured training is worthwhile, then...

.
 
Steve Campbell said:
Not too many folks teach shotguns anymore, due to a much larger interest in the "tactical carbine". One glaring exception is Louis Awerbuck, who is a renowned trainer from 'way back. In fact, he is doing a defensive shotgun class here in Baton Rouge in May.

However, the "combat shotgun" seems to be enjoying a revival of interest among the various internet forums. If that trend continues, I can promise you that more trainers will offer shotgun classes.
And that very thing is already happening. Suarez International, Tactical Response, Gunsite, and SigArms Academy offer shotgun courses. :D
 
i can vouch for Suarez, I'm headed for Tac Response in the fall.

it's all about where you are coming from i guess, but this is a tactical forum.

i can for sure wrap my head around spending $400 for one class (not counting ammo, a hotel and a six hour drive each way) on how to "fight" with a pistol, rifle or a shotgun.

and after you attend one or more of these classes, you may never want to "shoot" a weapon again, unless you are perfectly happy with "target shooting" at paper which doesn't shoot back.

i know a couple of great shooters who would fold in a gunfight.

again, it's all where you are coming from...

most of the schools like Suarez and Tac Response have forums, you can glean a LOT of info about the school from their alumni.
 
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