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aya16

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
If any of you followed my thread about the Labs at prado you know I have put out some very strong and opinionated theories about some problems I believe might be happening to the breed.
So as not to come across as some raving lunatic and give the impression that Labs are not a very good choice as a hunting dog I would like some help and working through this.

I do believe the Lab is an outstanding choice for a hunting partner, in the field and the duck blind. I have seen Labs work and hunted over them before and I think the Breed is excellent.
But I think tinkering with the intended purpose of the Lab may be showing some signs of a disaster waiting to happen at least in the competition area.

A solution I think would be to change the way they compete and incorporate fieldwork in the competition. But then training would have to be altered too.

In a nutshell I think more than my opinion should be raised in this very important discussion. Please lets keep the name calling and personal attacks to a minimum. But if you need to do it to get a point across thats fine just keep them pointed at me. sooooooooooo lets rumble. Eugene want to dance?
Mike
 
aya 16

I find this thread curious. Do you think that the breed is in trouble because of the trialing mentality? From what ive read the trialing stocks and field stocks dont necessarily criss cross so readily. Should they? Considering alot of trialers would never hunt? Equally, I think the majority of field dogs wont trial.There is alot of disciplines that labs are used for that are more easily achieved with certain stock lines i.e. Field, Trial,Service, Search and rescue, drug....By specializing these lines is the breed in trouble? I would think that the biggest threat to the breed would be the indescriminant backyard breeding that just muddles what could have been good lines.My chocolate comes from service stock and very mellow around the house and has great natural field and retrieving instincts.His Grandpa was a trialer named way to go rocky ( can be googled). I imagine this is where his charge in the field comes from. He is only limited by his trainer ( but im working hard to keep up ).His lack of solid hunting backround doesnt seem jeopardised but actually enhanced with the service dog side of things.

It seems to me that your concern should be the professionalism of the trainers and handlers that youve run in to. In my mind dogs are like people, there are endless competitors but few champions. You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear but you can damn well make a nice purse. I think people need to have more realistic expectations in competitions and remember that they should be in it for fun first and foremost.You cant guarantee wins by the amount you spend on dogs and trainers.The situations youve run into reminds me of all the instances of parents at childrens sporting events. When people get so emotionally involved it can come out in the worst ways.

Respectfully
MWAG
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Ill just call you monk ok
I agree with what your saying mostly, But I see things that dont seem right. I dont see one or two dogs being effected as the whole lot that were in the first instance, A hunt test.

But I wanted to hear from Lab owners and trainers to see if something might be up with the Lab in general. Just in fun mostly not to solve the world problems.

The way I see it is all dogs at one time or another were working dogs, and bred accordingly. Bird dogs, protective dogs, hounds, herding, every dog had a job and selective breeding happened to get the best dog for the job. Back then dogs that didnt cut the mustard were, frankly killed. This kept the dogs from breeding.

Many many years later we are the beneficiaries of that breeding in the dogs we use for our sports, and the dog also became more companion than way back then. Also in place of killing the dog we have them fixed.

Now you have these high powered Labs that are perfect field trial version of duck hunters. And with a little extra time a person buying pups from that champ can make a great real hunter. But then people that owned these dogs dont just duck hunt, they wanted an upland dog too. So training was pressed into the dog with upland hunting added. I even see ads for Lab puppies now that say they are from pointing lab stock so this has been going on for some time.

Like I said these dogs would be great for the hunter. But what about the person that buys a pup (just to compete) that has the breeding background of champs but doesnt even know that the back ground of the pups also includes upland. or even doesnt care and buys the pup anyway. Unless its a selling point
the seller isnt even going to bring it up, other than to say the parents are great hunting dogs.

My dogs are cute but not that cute and when they work a field training they have the full attention of the Labs showing or training the duck hunting thing. I was wondering why?

K.T. my girl brit was on point and a Lab came smashing into her from a hunt test that was going on a couple hundred yards away. K.T. didnt stop hunting and played with the dog, she charged the bird and tried to keep hunting. Shes only 8 months old when that happened. Why is my dog at her age even, so intent on the birds that she didnt want to play even if the other dog was right in her face? Shouldnt the Lab working in the hunt test be so involved that he doesnt distract either?

Thats where I came up with the upland thing. It wasnt my dog they wanted it was the birds planted upland style I think. Those dogs (the Labs) even if they never were brought into a field of planted birds wanted to do that. I see the training going on and the Labs are put on ducks only, dead or other wise. And of course the canvas dummies.

Im beyond the crap that happened at Prado Im more interested in why a certain breed of dog cant be controlled when put in a situation that doesnt effect even 8-9 month old pups doing their thing, Whistles, sight, doesnt matter the only time my dogs want to go check the Labs out is when they are taking a break from the training they are doing. My dogs are not super dogs, they are run of the mill Brits.

These Labs are breaking in the middle of their training/ testing.
Allot of them and older dogs too. Enough where Im being asked to hide my dogs when the Labs test. It sounds crazy but I actually agree that my dogs training are a major distraction for them. They are not just coming over to harass me. Theres a real problem.

I dont think its just because of my dogs, I think its what they are doing and, that is hunting upland style.

My idea is the breeding practice may have gone wrong or the trainers are isolating the dogs during training too much. Im not sure, I thought Eugene would jump in here and we could sort this out some. And it would be fun too. Any way Monk you had the gonads to jump in first so Ill ask you, do you think that might be going on?

It seems to me that your concern should be the professionalism of the trainers and handlers that youve run in to. In my mind dogs are like people, there are endless competitors but few champions. You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear but you can damn well make a nice purse. I think people need to have more realistic expectations in competitions and remember that they should be in it for fun first and foremost.You cant guarantee wins by the amount you spend on dogs and trainers.The situations youve run into reminds me of all the instances of parents at childrens sporting events. When people get so emotionally involved it can come out in the worst ways
desperate people do desperate things Monk they see a real problem they cant handle right off the bat. I dont think they know why, they just try and fix the problem thats at hand. In the long run they will have to deal with what ever it is in a real way. If it was just one or two dogs that were effected they would never come over to ask the non sence they did. They would just chalk it up to the one or two Labs need more training.

Mike
 
Mike
I definately think that the isolated training is a problem. For starters I dont think enough time and energy is put into the basic obedience training. In training Ollie ive found myself stepping back after his first season to fill in what was lacking. All of the problems ive had are easily isolated to what I didnt do, not what he cant do. Now that ive focused on the basics more his retriever and field work is really advancing quickly. In my excitement to get on with the job he is ultimately going to do I didnt build the foundation that I needed to and it showed. Im also learning the importance of training to all situations i.e. multiple hunters, new bird variety , other dogs, distractions, etc. I think alot of inexperienced handlers would be no different than myself in the drive to competition they are going to bypass alot of the little things that round out the training.In addition I think that most being somewhat frugal wouldnt put the amount of money into pro training to fill in all of the gaps but would try to fix individual problems while not seeing the entire picture.Problems are usually much bigger in scope than can be fixed with a simple patch.There arent many out ther that will forgoe all their efforts because the dog isnt ready. The mentality of the comp is next week and we will be done regardless is a formula that guarantees a great deal of tension, frustration and disappointment.

I think a good comparison would be the no child left behind testing. In a drive to assure govt funding teachers are forced to teach to the testing. This goes well for the test scores but leaves so much to be desired in the overall education being given. If they changed the test suddenly the test scores would be dramatically affected. With people and dogs alike you cant expect results if you havent provided the necessary training.

Aside from all that werent labs originally field dogs. I believe ive read that being the case and the switch to water was made in the states.

Respectfully
MONK :wink:
 
Mike,

Some dogs are meant for field trialing about like I'm meant to drive a GranPrix car. Some dogs just don't have what it takes to be a TOP DOG. They may not be as into the training as the trainer. Some trainers don't know the meaning of ENOUGH either. Any time that I've attempted training with one of mine, ther has come a time where the dog got tired of what was going on. Then I'd get tired of the dog not paying attention and my temperature would start to rise. I knew then that it was play time!

HWD
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
What you say makes allot of sense. It could be the dogs (although a lot of them) are being trained by the same trainers. And they are making the same mistakes on all of them, maybe.

The hunt tests I saw had about three of those custom trucks with the doggie condos built in. The owners seemed to have cars. It would make sense that trainers have the dogs for training and brought them to get hunt tested.

Im not sure of the history of the Lab, as far as upland hunting when the breed started out. I know some one will know. But that would also make sense. The hunt tests I saw did not include any upland tests, it was all duck hunting type simulation.

Is it just Calif Lab, or just a small thing like Prado Labs being trained all by the same trainers? I dont know. The more people that chime in here we will get closer to what it might be.

The foundation you talked about is exactly what Im not doing, when training all the brits Im working with now. And Im having un expected extreme success. The basic command of come has been put into them from 8 weeks old, but the rest is purely encouraging what they already have in them. And making it fun for them. I was worried a bit about what the dogs might do if brought into situations where other dogs are around. I was worried they would break and run other fields, or just play all the time. But its working well, so well almost all the dogs from the same litter are being trained the same way.

My worries were not founded, the command come has been all they needed and only at first in the field. Im not going to spell it all out here, but basically the dogs have been put on birds since they could walk. Not in the field of course, but at home.
Somewhere in another thread I have pixs posted of them on their first real hunt, canned pheasants, They were 6 months old. They did great.

Maybe what Im doing is really causing the problem with the labs? The dogs IM working with this way are so excited and really tear up the field looking for birds. Even at the end of the day when all the fields are empty My dogs, on their own, are running the fields with out me as Im picking up stuff to go home.. They did this on their own and I didnt stop them. I felt bad for them as there were no birds out there. So I toss a dead bird used for training earlier near the start of the field for them to eventually find.

But you can see in all of this that the dogs are extremely enthusiastic (and thats an understatement). Maybe the Labs are picking up on this?

I have worked a lot of dogs before but sporting dogs are new to me (14 years) and that has been Brits. It was my BRIT Bridgette that 14 years ago who taught me. I trained her in the traditional way, hard, she turned out to be absolutely awesome. But It was latter like 5 years into our relationship I let some of the training go, and let her just do her thing. We had a better time together after that.

So am I asking that the trainers of the Labs adjust to my training, because they may have a problem from me? or are there real flaws in their own training style? I dont know. 99 percent of the dogs that go to Prado are Labs, so it seems.
Pointing dogs seem to be rare. I show up with a boat load of pointers that want to hunt so bad I have to put harnesses on some when I chain them to the chain gang so they dont choke themselves to death. As Im working one pup at a time.

Maybe the labs are picking up on this in a big way. Maybe the upland breeding in these dogs is so strong, and the dogs are not allowed to do that, its causing a problem.

The problem seems to be with almost every lab within sight. I see what the other trainers are talking about, I see the Labs paying attention to us. There really is a problem, another reason I dont come unglued at them when they make the demands.

If some one around here has a Lab pup they are starting and want to upland hunt him, and wants to take a chance working him with us in this manner I talked about, I would be willing to try this. Because we are going places in training that isnt done much if at all. there is a chance it might not work out. So there is no charge to do this. But it would be interesting. You will have to prep the dog at home first For a few weeks. If interested Ill give more details later to you. It would have to be a young dog less than 5 months. A puppy would be better. If you're going to compete him dont do this. But if you are just hunting him later it might be worth the risk. Also I dont want to do this to a dog that you plan to breed.

But I would like to hear more from trainers about what this threads about.
Mike
 
Around here we have a serious lab problem-hip displasia caused by "garage breeders". The whole mentality of "I have a nice dog and my uncles friend has a good dog, so. . . this is a serious threat to the breed here. People just don't understand how important bloodlines are in breeding, and how much experience it takes to pick the right pair. Please leave the breeding to people who know what they're doing!
 
Im not sure, I thought Eugene would jump in here
A dainty toe in the water perhaps; I'm not qualified to comment in any detail on what happens in the US. I'm in correspondence with some trainers Stateside (and Aussie, France and Holland come to that) but as to practical hands on experience ...nada.

First a potted history of the breed....
http://www.buccleuchgundogs.com/labradorspage/labhistory
I have met the present Duke of Buccleugh; a great supporter of shooting and obviously, gun dogs. The truth is he's a spaniel bloke at heart!

There are differences of approach across The Great Water to Trials. You all know what goes on at yours; but the Trials in US / UK have grown apart in aims and objectives. We have no equivalent of your hunt tests. Brit Trials are run as close as possible to a normal shooting day, live wild game, no planted birds, absolute insistence on manners (one yip and you are on the bus home, eliminated). More info here by my friend Jeff Boston, a field trail judge.
http://www.gundog-magazine.com/brtrials.htm

On both sides of the pond labs have separated into two streams, workers and show, much the the detriment of the breed. There are health problems in both streams, but they are worse in the show dogs. US Labs are on the whole bigger and heavier than ours as reflected in the Breed Standards.

What follows is opinion ...
Upland hunting; well a Lab can do it, but it isn't his speciality. That's what spaniels, pointers and setters are for; I've never seen a Lab that wouldn't be hunted off his legs by a Springer. Labs are rarely used for rough shooting (ie upland) in UK.

Trials and Hunt tests in the US don't test for what Mr Joe Average-hunter is really interested in, gamefinding and game sense, so they don't offer as much information as to a pup's potential ability in the field. That is perhaps why so many US hunters are looking to British blood lines (there is a commercial aspect here too).

I'm sorry aya had trouble at Prado; but things happen in life, and I have hundreds of acres of a Welsh shooting estate literally on my doorstep, pretty well exclusive to me :twisted:.

And that's as far as I care to venture!

Eug
 
Neanderthal said:
Around here we have a serious lab problem-hip displasia caused by "garage breeders". The whole mentality of "I have a nice dog and my uncles friend has a good dog, so. . . this is a serious threat to the breed here. People just don't understand how important bloodlines are in breeding, and how much experience it takes to pick the right pair. Please leave the breeding to people who know what they're doing!
 
akc could require a ofa number before issuing a registration .possibly over time hip dysplasia would not be the problem it is.it is not only "garage breeders" that are causing the problems.there was more than one fc/afc that had hip dysplasia and was still bred.but then i could be wrong.it may not be that simple.could it?
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Ill give the labs one thing, of all the times they have come to my field none of them ever attacked my dogs. They have been almost comical in the just want to play thing. They just want to be a part of whats going on with us. They are big ole lovable bundles of joy, Its sad sometimes to see them get corrected for what they did. They are so happy at the time before the correction.

One knocked K.T. over when she was on point but it wasnt an aggressive act only a me too thing. In fact little K.T. got back up and as much said hey its my bird.

I really think its the trainers that messed them up at the park.
Now that I have had a lot more contact. The dogs are trained in as much isolation as possible and really corrected if they try and socialize even after the training. The socializing they do among them selves is even very formal, on leach and a passing sniff. I get way away from them now for the other dogs sakes. Those that come near me when I train now ask me if its ok, and I always say yes but warn them what might happen with their dogs. So I havent had one bit of problems in the way me and my dogs are treated now. In fact when I drive up in the motor home, you can almost hear them say run for the hills mike and the two brits are here.

Its all good, and a hunter would have some great hunting dogs in some of those labs for upland and ducks because, they are so birdie. But Ill bet most if not all those labs never get real hunting. Thats a shame.
Mike
 
Just a brief response to tracyhunters post about hip dysplasia (HD)

The incidence of HD in the breeding stock is measurable; in the US it's done via the Penn system in UK by the BVA test. These give a measure of the degree of dysplasia in sires and dams and breeders make a judgment as to whether any particular dog is suitable.

The objective in UK is to reduce the breed mean average scores over time, and this is being done, they are coming down .... in working dogs but it is a slow process. In UK you can only breed a true Lab from Kennel Club registered parents (ie the gene pool is closed) and you will see on a working dogs pedigree the hip and eye scores of his parents. Only KC registered dogs can compete in Trials. So working Labs are all from a known breeding pool, and Field Trails are the gold standard for performance.

My black Lab "Jack" is a nice dog and two people have asked that he cover their *****es this Summer but I've refused. In one case the ***** was not Kennel Club registered or hip scored at all, in the other the hip scores were too poor; so backyard or hobby breeders aren't always irresponsible.

I have a theory that any animal species (dog, cow, horse whatever) that is bred for appearance will over time degenerate into something pretty useless in terms of function. I think this process is playing a part in Lab breeding in the US, though I don't have a handle on the degree.

Eug
 
eugene molloy said:
There are differences of approach across The Great Water to Trials. You all know what goes on at yours...
No, Eug, they don't know...if there are three posters on this board who've actually ever seen a retriever field trial, that's two more than I would've wagered.

Hunt tests maybe; field trials, uh-uh. Not a real spectator-friendly event to begin with, and unless one's competing, he or she most likely hasn't attended.

"The Great Water," though, could be a double entendre in the difference between ours and yours. "Great water" being where US trials are won or lost. And "great water" being what determines whether a dog's got the bottle to run them, and compete in them, in the first place.

MG
 
I think we lose out not having hunt tests....the chance to measure the dog against a standard rather than a head-to-head.

It'll be interesting to see how Pippa's Gundog Club works out; I used to be a bit sniffy about the idea but I've changed my view. I'm going to build some training into our Sunday sessions aimed at her format.

We do' do big waeter. These hill streams and the Severn are quite enough thank you very much. On reflection Jack's done his bit on the Solway but it was pretty easy stuff not the real hairy chested thing. Here he is with his running lights; pulled a couple of widgeon out of a gutter just afterwards when it was full dark.
Image

Eug
 
Now that's the setup I'm waiting for in US trials, Eug--nightflighting. Of course, it'd be more trial artifice (shooting after sundown being illegal) not to mention in violation of the "marking is paramount" (not hearing :wink: ) guideline for trials.

Afraid I'll have to counter this
Trials and Hunt tests in the US don't test for what Mr Joe Average-hunter is really interested in, gamefinding and game sense, so they don't offer as much information as to a pup's potential ability in the field. That is perhaps why so many US hunters are looking to British blood lines (there is a commercial aspect here too).
Hunt tests do indeed test the gamut, and hunters who aren't interested in what HTs entail aren't interested, or don't consider themselves in need of, a *trained* working retriever. As a US hunter who recently went with *a* British blood line, it wasn't because of what the Brit breeding offered or the commercial swaying by the pestilence of gundog marketeers, but to see if a good dog is a good dog regardless of its country of origin or residence.

The greatest majority of working Labs in this country--99.5 percent I'd guestimate--come from American-bred "performance" stock. Even that is a drop in the bucket placed alongside the 150,000-plus Labs registered with the AKC annually (of which maybe 1 in 30 will ever see a duck, much less be asked to retrieve it).

The Solway, okay; now how about the Severn Bore for big water? :wink: When I broached "big water" in the US trial sense, I don't mean one of the Great Lakes, but what role water (dis)proportionately plays in our trials. At an open I recently ran, the last two retrieves of a triple called for a half-mile cumulative swim to and fro getting the last two birds, with the water between handler and bird placement. Meaning a lot of bottle for a dog having to go back in and swim that distance along with its memory guiding it to the birds.

MG
 
how about the Severn Bore for big water?
I've seen the Severn bore; he used to drink in the Kings Head in Bridgnorth!

eug
 
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