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m24shooter said:
Old_Painless said:
I have often wondered why that thread remains Tacked in ths forum, as it has what is basically false information in it.

Why isn't it replaced with pictures of properly calibrated gel and various shot penetrations?
I think it is kind of a "dance with the one who brung ya" deal. I don't know that there are pics available for as many loads as are shown.
I'm like you though, it would be better to have accurately calibrated gel showing a wide variety of standard defensive loads with some birdshot thrown in for scale.
This. Maybe we could get the OP to add a disclaimer up front?
 
sjohnny said:
If someone will buy the gel and the ammo I'd be more than willing to make some new pictures 8)
I'd be more than willing to pay for both.

It's the .177 airgun, gel mold, lightbox, chronograph, and (above all) time that cost the money I'm not quite willing to spend (yet). :wink:
 
i still only see the word FLIGHTCONTROL with the 00 in the description on the bottom

it says "PD132 00 - 9 pellet 00 Buckshot with FLITECONTROL® wad; PD156 4B - 34 pellet 4 Buckshot; PD256 4B - 24 pellet 4 Buckshot."
notice the semi colons as they are listing 3 different loads

PD132 00 -9 pellet 00 Buckshot with FLIGHTCONTROL wad
PD156 4b -34 pellet 4 Buckshot
PD256 4b -24 pellet 4 Buckshot
 
I'm straying off topic a little, but I often see it written that #1 buck is considered ideal by many people, yet demand for it isn't high enough to see a lot of it. Can I assume that a lot of this demand has to do with hunting rather than defense?

If so, I can understand how 00 may have high demand because of deer hunting, but what explains the popularity of #4 buck? Varmint control?
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Idek said:
I'm straying off topic a little, but I often see it written that #1 buck is considered ideal by many people, yet demand for it isn't high enough to see a lot of it. Can I assume that a lot of this demand has to do with hunting rather than defense?

If so, I can understand how 00 may have high demand because of deer hunting, but what explains the popularity of #4 buck? Varmint control?
To paraphrase O_P: The is no demand because there is no supply. There is no supply because there is no demand. If there was a supply, there would be demand. Kind of an endless loop.
 
Are that many 00 shells actually sold for hunting? I honestly don't know. I assumed that the vast majority of people who used shotguns for bigger game were using slugs. I know some folks use buckshot but I thought it was a pretty small number.

I actually have a box of 3" #4 buck that's intended use is coyotes. I have not yet had the opportunity to try it. A friend of mine who killed a metricassload of coyotes around El Paso in the early 70s recommended it for my situation (he used an AR most of the time and made a bunch of money between bounties and pelts).
 
sjohnny said:
Are that many 00 shells actually sold for hunting? I honestly don't know. I assumed that the vast majority of people who used shotguns for bigger game were using slugs. I know some folks use buckshot but I thought it was a pretty small number.
I don't really know myself. Where I grew up, a lot of the area was shotgun only for deer hunting, but almost everyone used slugs. I just know that some boxes of 00 buck have pictures of deer on them. Maybe deer hunting doesn't factor in much. I was just trying to find logic behind the availability of #4 and 00 and the unavailability of #1. But perhaps there isn't any logic other than what m24shooter said.
 
This is solid, if not classic information: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm.

Aside from initial patterning, if you want to be competent with your weapon it requires practice. Not just for the primary owner, but for anyone who could potentially be using the shotgun. As a result, target loads are used for practice far more often than buckshot loads.

Number 1 buckshot is readily available from a number of sources in any configuration you prefer. All you have to do is call Clint at Stars & Stripes and he can provide what you'd like: http://www.starsandstripesammo.com/index2.html. You can take that as a strong recommendation.

Very few people bother to pattern at all, much less do any penetration testing. To most, buckshot is buckshot and that's as far as it goes.

The average self-defense shot is fired within 15 feet. Defensive performance is a whole different school of thought from offensive performance. Using buckshot at 25 yards is considered murder, not "defense" in many areas. Regardless, you will likely be arrested and jailed. You can also expect to be sued.

Any obsession with over-penetration is silly. If you are forced to use a firearm to protect yourself, when there is no other reasonable alternative, it means there is an immediate threat to your life. The threat needs to be eliminated-- that's all there is.

Calibrated ballistic gelatin is a good medium for comparison. Dr. Fackler, MacPherson, etc., have long shown that. At the same time, it is basic to wounding ballistics that all wounds are unique, no two wound cavities are identical. Ballistic gel has no breathing or circulation, has no vital organs, does not wear leather jackets, is not changed by drugs, emotion. Ballistic gelatin does not move, throw its arms up, or shoot back. As ballistic gelatin is not alive, it is hard to kill it. No need to stop it as it isn't moving in the first place.

You are counting on one shot to eliminate the threat. It had better be a good one. Focusing on overpenetration is off-topic; it could get you killed. The only reason to fire in the first place is because you have no alternative. If you were going to a gunfight, you'd bring a rifle. That isn't the idea.

The idea is to remove a clear, immediate threat to you and your family, at close range, instantly. It is fight or flee and in your own home fleeing is often not possible. If a shot is fired and you have not eliminated the threat-- you have failed. That failure is far, far more dangerous to you, your family, and what might be on the other side of a wall than any over-penetration theory.

To assure adequate penetration in all situations, you absolutely must use projectiles that will over-penetrate. Collision dynamics on bone, layers of clothing, fat, etc., are not precise nor predictable. Too little penetration will get you killed.

It is defense, defense of your own life, your family's life. So, you choose a firearm and load as if your familiy's life hangs in the balance-- that is the whole idea.
 
RandyWakeman said:
Using buckshot at 25 yards is considered murder, not "defense" in many areas.
Never even heard of such. Not in Texas.

Regardless, you will likely be arrested and jailed.
For shooting someone in your home? Not hardly. Not in Texas.

You can also expect to be sued.
Nope. Many states now have laws to prevent such suits.

If the shooting is justifiable, it is justifiable.
 
RandyWakeman said:
... it is basic to wounding ballistics that all wounds are unique, no two wound cavities are identical. Ballistic gel has no breathing or circulation, has no vital organs, does not wear leather jackets, is not changed by drugs, emotion. Ballistic gelatin does not move, throw its arms up, or shoot back. ...
Excellent point. Ballistic gel is a good medium to compare the penetration of rounds. What will actually happen when you hit a living breathing aggressor is unknown until it actually happens.

You are counting on one shot to eliminate the threat.
I train to put more in there but the reality is that one is all you may get.
It had better be a good one.
And the more you train to make it a good one the less chance you have to worry about what happens when it goes through a wall.
 
JMcDonald said:
The 12" minimum penetration came about from the Miami (Hollywood?) shootout, where it was determined a bullet went through the BG's arm and stopped within 1" of his heart, having penetrated a total of 11", correct?

Sometimes I do indeed wonder about switching to perhaps #1 buck from 00, for the increased wound tracts. But then, I always prefer to err on the side of caution (and in this case, really far to the side of caution if you think about it). I picked 00 and have considered 000 because, if some 5'10, 300lb man comes rushing through my door, I want to make sure I have a load that will go all the way through that muscle and fat, possibly through the arms, and make holes in (if not through) the heart and lungs (and possibly even fall out his back, heh). Additionally, the ability to shoot through a door or wall or other light concealment found in my apartment complex, and still have decent penetration on a frontal shot.

Of course, on an average-sized man wearing light clothing, it does look like a frontal shot from #4 would be absolutely the most devastating option. But, as we've all agreed, it is not just about the odds, but the stakes. If I hit an average-sized man wearing light clothing strait in the chest with a 9-pellet 00 load, it is probably going to still do the job, and not much is lost. However, say a guy is trying to bust through door, and I shoot him through said door with a #4 load. Say he has his arm raised in front of his chest so he can hit the door with his shoulder. There is probably a good chance the #4 load could be stopped by his fat bicep before entering his torso.

Or perhaps he has managed to get the door open, which swings inward and to the left. He if is peaking around the door (leaning to the right) with a gun in his right hand, and his left hand on the outside knob, the same thing could happen where a shot through the door could be stopped by his bicep. If he is determined enough, he could definitely keep fighting for quite a while through that, espedcially if all he is using his a handgun in his right hand. Or hell, if he has a bat, that would still be a very devastating weapon even one-handed when being wielded by a guy of that size.

So, that is why I want my loads to penetrate deeper than the 12" minimum, you know?

Or am I exaggerating the hard-cover penetration differences between buck loads?
Buckshot really just flat-out sucks penetrating hard cover. A .22lr does better in most cases (higher velocity, higher sectional density, smaller cross-section. The math backs the testing), when it comes to wood and metal until you get into 000 and 0000 sizes of buck. Just my experience iwht it.
 
M4FAN said:
Buckshot really just flat-out sucks penetrating hard cover. A .22lr does better in most cases
What are you considering hard cover? I've shot 2x6, old doors, refrigerators, car doors, and some other stuff (including 55 gallon drums and plywood :twisted: ) and 00 has always had more ooomph (technical term) coming out the other side than a .22. I shot a loaded P226 Magazine with a round of Federal Tactical 00 several months ago. It was on a 2x6 which was nailed to a piece of plywood leaned up against a 110 gallon galvanized stock tank. The 00 went through all of that including both sides of the stock tank (and the rolled top edge on the first side). A .22 would have had a hard time making it through the 2x6.
 
sjohnny said:
Something to keep in mind also is that 12" in bare gelatin doesn't take into account anything else that proj might have to breach on the way to the vital areas. If you look at m24shooter's MRI results from his last "what did he swallow now" visit there are bones and stuff on the way in and the bad guy is likely (though not necessarily) to be wearing clothes. All of those things will affect the proj's ability to reach the area necessary for optimum fight stoppage.

Just a reminder that 12" is considered the minimum.
Yes, it is indeed a minimum. I agree with it, but one thing that changed my opinion a little was watching a CABGx4. There is a good bit of stuff in the chest-cavity/torso, and the ribs might well deflect #4 buck a little, but between lungs (pneumothorax), liver (massive bloodloss), the heart (obvious), the spleen (massive blood-loss), the ascending and descending aorta (massive bloodloss), it is going to be VERY difficult for the pellet to be deflected to an area where it "does no good". Failing that, 26 others are on their way.

The only thing that makes me leery of using #4 buck is clothing. A set of leathers would go a LONG way towards stopping light, spherical projectiles.

As to the 5'10 300# guy, I'm not worried about it from a fat standpoint. I have cared for patients who were well over 500#, and there still wasn't more than about 5-8" between the front of their chest and their cardiopulmonary organs. Now, if you had to shoot that guy from the side, it just wouldn't work, it really wouldn't. 000 or #9 bird. 'bout the same in that case I would guess. Insufficient.

What you DO have to consider is that people who work out will have thicker, denser muscle-mass over the chest (pecs). THIS is what will pose a threat to reaching those organs. Factor in that I know tonnes of guys who are 5'7-5'11 who weigh in at a LEAN 200-250#, and the #4 seems marginal. However, I think in my appartment it will work. There are no distances over about 15' (maximum physically possible distance) and I am a fan of modified or tighter chokes. I don't think that a shot of around 7-12' (about average distance I would expect in my place) would cause enough spread or velocity loss that the #4 would have ANY trouble.

If I were an officer who dealt with longer distances, I would go with 0 buck as a minimum, and probably 000 as a preference, as it patterns tighter than smaller shot usually.
 
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