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Republican said:
Curly-Nohair said:
Although not near as easy as with the bigger bores, eh?
Boy, imna tellya what, - no joking there. But the challenge is so fun, that I just can't stop myself from trying!

And when you whack the targets at the center-field stations, it just makes you want to do it more and more.

Since I got this .410, I haven't shot skeet with anything else. My goal is to run em with .410.

I don't know if that's possible (for me), but I'm going to die trying.
You will get it done! First step is to start believing it. Second step is start shooting the 410 like it was a 12 gauge. You have pay close attention to the details, hold point,look point, Head down...but once you call pull, it is all eyes and thighs. Do not be careful, be confident....shoot to hit, do not try to not miss....therein lies the difference.

The 410 will magnify your every flaw. It can be your best teacher or a cruel taskmaster....your choice. I still get a serious case of giggles when I run them with a 410....and grinning will mess up my gun mount!
 
The worst thing a shooter can do, is treat the 410 like it was a 410. Treat it and shoot it like it was a 12 gauge. Trying to be careful and precise will destroy your success with the 410.

It WILL magnify your bad habits, but will also tend to make you more aware of the proper leads to center the targets. It should improve your shooting in all gauges.

Just don't treat it like it was a small patterning gun. Trying to be very precise in placing your shots will lead to the acceleration of every bad habit in the books. Forget that it's a 410, and shoot it like a 12 ga.. You will progress much sooner doing so.

DLM
 
Two questions:

1. What size .410 shells are being used? 2 1/2" (aka 5/2 from another thread :mrgreen: )? Or 3"?

2. What is meant by EV and SD for chromo readings? Presumably SD is standard deviation. But EV?

Thanks for contributing to my understanding.

Edit: One further observation from the peanut gallery - 8 shots is hardly statistically significant. 20 (or better yet, 40) would be a better measure of consistency, IMO.

Edit 2: One more thought - SD typically impacts long range (300+ meters) shots. Shotshell loading would seem to be more about pattern uniformity, wouldn't it?
 
Ev is extreme variation
SD is standard deviation
 
rhett1977 said:
Ev is extreme variation
SD is standard deviation
Thanks. I was scratching my head on EV. Statistics classes were soo long ago.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
aBrowningfan said:
8 shots is hardly statistically significant.
You are absolutely correct. I normally test minimum of 10 shots, sometimes 12 when I run an "official" chrono test.

But that chrono session wasn't a dedicated .410 chrono test, - it was to test some old W540 powder in reduced payloads in 12-gauge for a friend.

I just happened to grab the .410 "extras" that I had in a partially filled EZ-Stacker (that wasn't enough to make a full box).

I'm concerned about those EV/SD figures I posted above, yes, but I'm also pretty perplexed about being ~100fps short of the published 1,300 fps of the published recipe (and what others have reported getting).

One thing I did notice upon cutting one of the tested hulls open, is how "rough" the inside surface of the hull is. I'm not sure how this compares to other (12 gauge) hulls, but I wonder if such rough surface would interfere with the gas seal being made ?

Image


I guess I'm grasping at staws here. I'll bump up the powder (300MP) from 16.4 grains out of the 12A bushing that's in the machine now to a #13 bushing, and re-test. Thing is, I got 2 flats already made up with the 16.4, so I guess I got no choice but to live with them. But I will re-test them.

The hulls tested with 3-times fires 2-1/2 inch Winchester AA HS's.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
D L Marcum said:
The worst thing a shooter can do, is treat the 410 like it was a 410. Treat it and shoot it like it was a 12 gauge. Trying to be careful and precise will destroy your success with the 410.

It WILL magnify your bad habits, but will also tend to make you more aware of the proper leads to center the targets. It should improve your shooting in all gauges.

Just don't treat it like it was a small patterning gun. Trying to be very precise in placing your shots will lead to the acceleration of every bad habit in the books. Forget that it's a 410, and shoot it like a 12 ga.. You will progress much sooner doing so.

DLM
Dave, - thanks for guiding words, a lot of which I either didn't know, or wouldn't have thought of. Adapting to it all has been an uphill climb (as far as percentage of broken targets) albeit very fun to shoot. But I want it to also be more than just fun, - I want to become an effective shooter with it, so any/all advice is welcome indeed !
 
Republican you have a sincere PM from me. I'd appreciate it if you read it. Sorry for the derail. Carry on!

Best advice for 410 - shoot 3,4,5 doubles a lot with it. I will tell you that a 12 gauge kicks like mule after shooting several cases (not flats) of 410. Even 3/4oz 12 gauge loads!!!!!!
 
Republican said:
aBrowningfan said:
8 shots is hardly statistically significant.
You are absolutely correct. I normally test minimum of 10 shots, sometimes 12 when I run an "official" chrono test.

But that chrono session wasn't a dedicated .410 chrono test, - it was to test some old W540 powder in reduced payloads in 12-gauge for a friend.

I just happened to grab the .410 "extras" that I had in a partially filled EZ-Stacker (that wasn't enough to make a full box).

I'm concerned about those EV/SD figures I posted above, yes, but I'm also pretty perplexed about being ~100fps short of the published 1,300 fps of the published recipe (and what others have reported getting).

One thing I did notice upon cutting one of the tested hulls open, is how "rough" the inside surface of the hull is. I'm not sure how this compares to other (12 gauge) hulls, but I wonder if such rough surface would interfere with the gas seal being made ?

Image


I guess I'm grasping at staws here. I'll bump up the powder (300MP) from 16.4 grains out of the 12A bushing that's in the machine now to a #13 bushing, and re-test. Thing is, I got 2 flats already made up with the 16.4, so I guess I got no choice but to live with them. But I will re-test them.

The hulls tested with 3-times fires 2-1/2 inch Winchester AA HS's.
Sealing could be a factor. Only way to test that theory would be to run some virgin hulls with everything else kept the same. Using once-fired hulls that didn't have the rough surface should be an appropriate test, too. If it turns out the rough surface is the root cause, that opens up a whole other line of discussion. :wink:
 
Then do a test with 1 load on it, then 2 loads on it, and so on. I've seen these tests run on 12 gauge hulls and the results were surprising. The velocity dropped off very little. It was on trapahooters.com
He loaded until they couldn't be loaded any more
 
rhett1977 said:
Then do a test with 1 load on it, then 2 loads on it, and so on. I've seen these tests run on 12 gauge hulls and the results were surprising. The velocity dropped off very little. It was on trapahooters.com
He loaded until they couldn't be loaded any more
Which was why I commented that a whole new line of discussion would be opened if there was drop-off. :wink:
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
All good points, - both of you (thanks for that).

Obviously a lot more testing is in order. I was sorta waiting for the other shoe to drop with this .410 reloading stuff. Outside of the Bang-B-Gone thing, everything's been going suspiciously "too" good. But maybe this is just a fluke, or something obvious that I'm over looking.

As much as I hate to blow expensive factory ammo by shooting it over a chrono at the patterning board, I should of did that the other day as a "control" to see where they were at.

Course the other option is the 'do nothing' approach. Just bump the bushing up, and concentrate on all that shooting stuff that Dave/DLM was talking about. Decisions, decisions....
 
Run em at 1300+ with a .003 or .005 choke and don't look back. Best advice Dave ever gave me. And trust me he's given me a lot of Mec advice
 
Republican I ran the same load you have posted through my procrono digital some time back. 16.4 grains of 300mp. I ran 3 strings of 8 shots and the average velocity was 1280 fps. This was with 300mp out of lot number 05. IIRC the low number in those strings was 1255. The high was around 1310. I do not remember the exact SD and ES numbers. When I started out with 300mp, I loaded a batch at 15.5. I can't remember my numbers (somewhere in the low 1200s) but my breaks weren't that good. I stepped up to 16.4 and the breaks improved tremendously. A fellow shooter that I shoot with had the same results. I also purchased some powder out of lot # 08. With this powder my average velocity with 16.4 grains was right around 1300fps. Temp for those numbers ranged from 60 to 70 degrees. Breaks with the 08 lot of powder are similar to the 05 lot. I use 1/2oz of 8.5s, Win primers, and CB 5050 wads exclusively in my 410 loads with AAHS hulls.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Thanks for the info Turp, - not sure where to start. Could be the powder, the wads, or some other unforeseen issue. I'm baffled personally, but I'm also band new to .410, and have not much experience with any of the components (except the W209 primer).

I ordered some different wads to try (Gualandi 36-gauge magnum), but at this point, seems the easiest thing for me to try is a different powder. I recently got a new keg of H110, and so I guess I'll start there.
 
I wish I had everything in a table for you to peruse. I have tried the federal 410 wad and with 300 mp the fit wasn't as good. I tried the orange PC wad and wasn't at all happy with it. For powder I have used Lil Gun, not enough velocity. Alliant 410 gave 1200 fps + velocity but burnt the crimps on the hulls. It is very hard on hulls. I have been very happy with 300mp. Particularly after I moved up to 16.4. After running the numbers, I decided to let the quality of my breaks decide the issue for me. I get good strong breaks with this load out of fixed full/full barrels. Went 27 out of 29 on the 5 stand late this evening with the same load. Your numbers have me a little baffled as well. I have always felt like my prochrono digital gave consistent low readings. In the neighborhood of 4-5% low on average.
 
300MP is the way to go for 410
 
Republican said:
Thanks for the info Turp, - not sure where to start. Could be the powder, the wads, or some other unforeseen issue. I'm baffled personally, but I'm also band new to .410, and have not much experience with any of the components (except the W209 primer).

I ordered some different wads to try (Gualandi 36-gauge magnum), but at this point, seems the easiest thing for me to try is a different powder. I recently got a new keg of H110, and so I guess I'll start there.
Have you run another sample or two of that questionable load over the chrono? Was it a bright day or a cloudy day, cloudy is best.
 
Republican said:
All good points, - both of you (thanks for that).

Obviously a lot more testing is in order. I was sorta waiting for the other shoe to drop with this .410 reloading stuff. Outside of the Bang-B-Gone thing, everything's been going suspiciously "too" good. But maybe this is just a fluke, or something obvious that I'm over looking.

As much as I hate to blow expensive factory ammo by shooting it over a chrono at the patterning board, I should of did that the other day as a "control" to see where they were at.

Course the other option is the 'do nothing' approach. Just bump the bushing up, and concentrate on all that shooting stuff that Dave/DLM was talking about. Decisions, decisions....
Hard to shoot good when you are thinking about reloading....even more so when thinking and shooting the 410.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
So as a follow-up, I did chrono some factory Winchester AA HS 1300 fps "Sporting Clays" loads"

Temp: 66.3 deg F
Time: 14:56
Gun: Browning Citori SKT/SKT chokes
Crono: Pro Chrono Digital
Weather: overcast
Shots: 10

Factory:
Hi: 1326
Lo: 1278
Avg: 1306
ES: 48
SD: 16

So I would say that it's not the gun.

Based on the premise that Alliant lists 17.8 grains of 300-MP in a 3-inch hull with 11/16th's oz, I decided to load up some twice-fired 2-1/2 inch AA HS w/ a CB5050HS and a W209 with 17.46 grains of 300-MP :

+1 grain handloads:
Hi: 1360
Lo: 1238
Avg: 1289
ES: 122
SD: 40

I also retested my original 16.4 gain 300-MP once-fired loads, and they were just as crappy as before.

Clearly this load is not performing correctly. Even with an extra grain of powder, it's still 11 fps short of the advertised velocity, and ES and SD more than double that of a factory load.

At this point, I'm thinking it's the wad, and so I'll start there.

Q: What other clone/replacement wads are available for this application ?

I'm thinking of just buying a bag of OEM Winchester wads to try, but also wondering if it would be worth it to try the OEM Federal Champion wad.

I assume that the OEM Remington SP410's are for taper'd wall hulls (and that the STS .410 is in fact a taper'd hull) ?
 
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