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ben501st

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
My little sister will soon be going on her first pheasant hunt(farm pheasants). The only gun we have that she can manage is a newer 410 Wingmaster (3" capable) with a vent rib modified choke barrel. Does anybody have any experience hunting pheasants with a 410 and could recommend a load to get the job done. Yes I will pattern before hand but I'd like a good starting point before paying $16+ a box. Thanks.
 
First off I will tell you that unless she is very proficient with a 410 using it on pheasant is a bad idea. If she is up to the task, 3 inch no 6 shot has worked very well for me and I have seen a few other shooters have good luck with the same load. I don't mean to be condescending here, Just hate to see anyone given the chance to hunt with family and be discouraged by missing and or wounding birds. I,m sure you already know this but a 20 ga semi auto would be a much better choice. Would make a nice early xmas gift? Whatever you decide, enjoy the hunt, memories will last forever.
 
With the mod choke it will pattern well from 20 yards to 32 yards. I would use #6 in either REM or WIN 3"shells. You can let her shoot first and if needed do a clean up shot.

The biggest issue I have seen with most young shooters is using a gun that is too big and heavy let alone too much recoil. I think a properly choked 410 is a great choice for first time very small framed shooters. A 28ga would be my first choicewith the 20ga only after they can handle the weight of a bigger gun. The 410 is range limited by lack of pattern dencity do to lack of pellet count specialy with shot >#7.5.Within 30 yards it will kill as good as one can point it.
 
There is a saying by Sun Tzu "Know thy enemy" meaning gather as much information about your opponent before doing battle with him. This applies nicely with giving advice about hunting the more information we receive the better advice we can give. Now for 20 questions with KS.

First off will you be hunting with dogs? If so flushers or pointers? Have you been to this preserve before, if so what is their SOP? Has she shot skeet or sporting clays before, what is her shooting ability like? What is the range limit you will try to get her to shoot at? I assume there will be others to back her up if she misses or cripples?

What the standard operation procedure of the preserve is varies greatly by establishment. For example the preserve I go to works something like this. You arrive at the club house and wait around/BS until one of the staff rounds up the birds from the pens and you all go out to the field together. Once there one of the hunting party will go with the person setting the birds to mark where they are set while the rest of the group gets ready. The birds are generally dizzied prior to being set unless a large group of birds are used. In the case of the pheasants a leg may be broken if the hunters wish.

As you can see it is pretty easy hunting especially with the pointer I have. On my last trip last season I was hunting chukar and I actually kicked one and moved it a few inches and it still required a second kick to get it airborne. On that particular hunt I used a mix of 28ga 3/4oz #7 1/2 reloads and Win. AA 410ga 1/2oz #8 in a 28ga CZ Ringneck with a chamber reducer to 410ga and cyl./i.c chokes.

For preserve pheasant, which I honestly don't have much experience with but if I had to chose a factory load it would be Remington Express 11/16oz #7 1/2. Though Win. AA 1/2oz #8 would be a good back up load if the Rem's don't pattern well as the #8 shot at 1300fps should have no problems with taking a preserve pheasant at 30 yards. The previous may be amended depending on your response.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
The hunt is a youth hunt put on by Pheasant's Forever. There are volunteers who bring their own dogs so we won't know if we get a pointer or not. She will be paired with either my brother with his 870 SuperMag or her friend who I believe uses a 20ga as back up. Both of them have hunting experience. I went to the hunt 3 years and the birds are always big and slow farm birds.
Yes she has practiced on clays with the gun she will be hunting with and does really well.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
The hunt has two youth hunters, 1 guide, 1 dog and anyone else (parents) who wants to tag along in an area. Only the two youth have guns and other hunting groups are placed at least 600-700yds away minimum so that every kids has a good chance of getting a bird (usually 3-4 are stocked).
 
Sorry for more questions but what sort of range would you like her to have 20-25 yards, 25-30, 35-40? Since you have been to this hunt before what are the birds like will they run when hit or just hide were they land? What sort of ranges would you guest the birds are shot at?
 
I hunted and guided for phez on a preserve for many years. With beginners I thought a cyl to IC 12 ga with #7.5 trap loads a good place to start, especially kicking up planted birds. The idea here was to give new shooters the widest effective pattern. I discouraged shooting past 30 yds, and carried something with more choke and larger shot for cripple duty.

Love Model 42s, and have used them on preserve birds. I patterned and chrono'd a bunch of 3" shells and agree with ksfowler the RP #7.5 is the way to go to 25, maybe 30 yds. It is easily the fastest 3" shell available - 1250 fps or more. You can get more range out of the #6 loading, but effective pattern size is smaller. The new 3" B&P in #7.5 would be my second choice.

Sam
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
I'm bad at range guesstamation but I'd say less than 25 yards. Close enough you could hit them with a rock if you had good aim. The birds I've seen wounded usually stay where they land.
 
Ok that is very good. Now I may catch flax for this but at that range, especially with the 410ga I would not use #6 or larger pellets. I think that a 1/2oz #8 target load (205 pellets) would be my first choice backed up with Rem. 11/16oz #7 1/2 (239 pellets). Though if the Remingtons pattern better just use those. That should give some leeway since the #8 will work to 30 yards and the #7 1/2 out to 35 yards.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
The Remington #8 Nitro Gold work great on clays with her .410 so hopefully other Remington loads work well. I've used #6 Winchester Super Speed Xtra in my Marlin .410 with some success but they are actually slower compared to other .410 shells while the 12 gauge version is faster than other 12s. Thanks for all the help fellas. {hs#
 
Ben, You are correct.

I kept records of chrono results:

Avg instrumental velocity (3 feet) from 26" M-42:

Fiocchi 11/16 oz - 1232 fps
Remington 11/16 oz - 1270 fps
Winchester 11/16 oz - 1122 fps
Winchester 3/4 oz - 1118 fps

I later chrono'd 3" B&Ps and they were around 1170 fps, IIRC.

Very much agree with ksfowler. Out to 25 yds you have zero problem killing birds with #7.5s.

Sam
 
I've hunted pheasant for a number of years using 2.5" .410s with 1/2 oz. of hard 9s. I liked the 9s as they will give a decent pattern and they have killed a number of pheasants in Baja over the years. That said, 3/4 oz. in a 20 or 28 gauge is a better option if possible. I agree with most of what ksfowler166 said and would add, always shoot twice when you've hit a pheasant on the first shot. It certainly helped me on rising birds when your first shot is to the back.
 
The 1/2 #8.5 shot at 1300fps works great out to 32 yards on quail and wood cock with IC & Mod from a CZ. For grouse I use only #8 and larger shot. Now this leaves pheasant regaurdless of pattern I will only use shot large enough to penitrate into the vitals on out going birds which would mean #7.0 shot or larger. I know of no ammo in #7 shot so it leaves #6 shot as the best suitible shot for the 410 and pheasant.

Next the 410 chokes are patterned at 25 yards not 40 yards like all the other gauges are. The pattern should be very tight but usefull at about 20 yards. On a pheasant size target it should be good out to 32 yards for dencity. I think using #8 and smaller shot on pheasent is never a good idea no matter what gauge/bore size is being used.

My briley extended choke seem to pattern tighter than the CZ does for the same chokes do, so pattern that 870WM 410. But I beat you will be happy with either the Super X #6 or the REM #6.
 
tjen said:
Next the 410 chokes are patterned at 25 yards not 40 yards like all the other gauges are.
Tjen I have found this off quoted bit of information to be misleading at best and untrue at worst. The chokes in a 410ga just like any other shotgun are measure by % of pattern in a 30" circle at 40 yards. What I believe the quote refers to is that the 410ga may not have enough pattern density at 40 yards to be useful. It does not mean for example that a full choke 410ga should put only 70% of its charge in a 20" circle at 25 yards, it should theoretically put 70% of its pattern into a 30" circle at 40 yards. A modified choke is a modified choke regardless of gauge and biggest difference is between any two guns/chokes.
 
I used to hunt chukar a lot. Have used only a 12 and 16 on them with 1 1/8 7.5's in the 12 and 1oz 7.5's in the 16. We ran into pheasant's now and then and we had a lot of cripples with 7.5 shot. It will certainly knock them but clean kills were fairly rare. Finally got tired of it and went to 36 shot and never looked back. My guess is that the 7.5 shot just doesn't have quite enough weight to penetrate well, the 6 shot does. If I were going to hunt pheasant's, I don't anymore, I'd much prefer 5 shot or even 4 shot.

The difference in size between a chukar and a pheasant is considerable and pattern density not as critical. But penetration does get critical, heavier shot penetrate's better. I also like 2 1/2" 410 loads. Started using it training my dogs a year or so ago. Then I get on them fast, keep the shot's fairly close and the #6's work well on pigeons. But if I were to hunt wild birds much larger than grouse with it, then I'd think 3". Well that's not true, I'd think heavier shot charge and my 28.
 
History vs current practice.

O'Connor and others wrote about the 25 yd testing distance for the .410. Interestingly, Jack said the 25 yd standard was for a 24" circle (not 30"). I can believe that, as a 70% pattern in 30" at 40 yds was not going to happen with Pb shot through a "full" .410 prior to shotcups. My pre-1950s "mod" M-42s are surprisingly lightly constricted, averaging only about .006". Not a chance you would get a 55-60% 40 yd pattern out of them with fiberwad loads. 25 must have been it.

But just as interesting as history are the revisited patterning capabilities of modern .410 loads. My M-42 "full" gun (.016) that should have given 70% in 24" at 25 yds "back in the day" now gives 67% in just 20" at 40 yds with RP 3" #6. Kinda like night and day.

Choke is definitionally a percentage, and not dependent on pellet number. So 2.5" shells do better, albeit pattern density suffers. The shot in 2.5" shells benefits from full petal protection and, of course, the shorter column height.

Guess I'm saying that .410s can now run out of effective pattern before they run out of choke. You can pattern them at 40 yds with good shells, get some respectable percentages, but still not like what you see......b/c half an ounce ain't very much.

Sam
 
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