Shotgun Forum banner
  • Whether you're a greenhorn or a seasoned veteran, your collection's next piece is at Bass Pro Shops. Shop Now.

    Advertisement
1 - 20 of 38 Posts

ShootingDad

· Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
Just wondering,has other shooters found the slower speed ammo to have a higher point of impact?I'm not saying it's a negative and I'm a big supporter of it ,but I seem to have to float targets higher when using it and it has a tighter pattern.It seems to be all about the speed.7/8 loads at 1200 are flat as 1 1/8 1200's but 1145's hit higher and the Winchester aa 980's higher still.Like I said I like them all ,especially the low noise low recoil for beginners and kids( and me on aching days).
 
It may be due to a slightly longer time in the barrel. Recoil from the shot may have the muzzle elevated a fraction higher when the shot and wad exit the muzzle.
 
I believe the type of wad and shot used in the ammo have a pretty good effect on the pattern. At least in the ammo that I reload.
 
BakerBB said:
It may be due to a slightly longer time in the barrel. Recoil from the shot may have the muzzle elevated a fraction higher when the shot and wad exit the muzzle.
What he said. Very common among big bore pistol shooters -- slow shoots high; fast shoots low.
 
Diddle said:
BakerBB said:
It may be due to a slightly longer time in the barrel. Recoil from the shot may have the muzzle elevated a fraction higher when the shot and wad exit the muzzle.
What he said. Very common among big bore pistol shooters -- slow shoots high; fast shoots low.
I have read that the full pressure in a shotgun shell builds within the shell from the expanding gases and that is why a good crimp is so important. Contrasted to a rifle or pistol the gases continue expanding in the barrel.

Rifles and pistols run much higher pressures and with have heavier barrels to support those continuing pressures. After all, a shotgun barrel is pretty thin compared to a rifle because the heavy work to place within the cartridge.

Such is my understanding of the reading I have done.
 
Applying rifle/pistol ballistics rules of thumb to shotgun never works.

We're shooting a cloud of round, utterly unaerodynamic pellets that behave in a semi random manner once they leave the barrel; not a single, streamlined, gyroscopically stabilized projectile.

As has already been mention, the internal ballistics of shotguns are very, very different to those of handguns and even more different to those of rifles.
 
No matter what the type of gun, rifle, pistol, or shotgun, the longer the barrel time the higher the impact point.
This is more apparent with heavier recoiling guns. Other factors do impact this like gun weight, but barrel time is always a factor.
 
BADDUCK said:
No matter what the type of gun, rifle, pistol, or shotgun, the longer the barrel time the higher the impact point.
While in theory that is correct, in practice the effect is indiscernible in shotguns. You cannot get enough of a difference in speed between the slowest and fastest safe loads to make a practical difference where it counts.
 
I know guys that sighted slug guns using a rest that they just laid their gun in and did not hold the forearm(lead sled) consistently shot low when they shot their guns at deer in hunting situations where they actually held their forearm tight.
Also, this year while turkey hunting, I was calling for a friend when I looked over and his gun was barely touching the top of his shoulder. We were caught off guard by a gobbling tom and had to get set up quick. Anyhow, I told him to get the gun down in his shoulder better(he shoots a 3.5) The Tom came in and stood at 35 yards, he shot and body hit it. He said the bead was on his head. Basically I believe the heavy turkey load moved the gun down during recoil and caused the shot to be off by a foot or so. BTW we never recovered the turkey-it was a shame.
I believe POI can be affected in shotguns especially how a shooter controls his gun during recoil.
 
I understand what you are saying and what the op asked. I was just pointing out that there could be differences. I doubt very little with target shells. But 1" of barrel movement equals 3 feet @ 40 yards-and that can make a difference.
 
Sobrepuesta said:
BADDUCK said:
No matter what the type of gun, rifle, pistol, or shotgun, the longer the barrel time the higher the impact point.
While in theory that is correct, in practice the effect is indiscernible in shotguns. You cannot get enough of a difference in speed between the slowest and fastest safe loads to make a practical difference where it counts.
Really, I shoot 12 ga steel shotshell loads at 1550 fps regularly. I also shoot lead target loads at 1145 on the skeet range in a 12 of similar weight. A difference of 405 fps, a gain of 35 percent.

My favorite medium rifle is a .280 Remington. I shoot 160 grain loads at 2850 fps and 140 grain at 3050 fps. A difference of 200 fps, a gain of 7 percent.

I can't percieve any differnce in recoil with the rifle load. With the shotgun loads you can bet your azz there's a difference. And their is a difference in POI that you can demonstrate on the pattern board.
 
BADDUCK said:
And their [there] is a difference in POI that you can demonstrate on the pattern board.
How much of a difference, and at what distance?

Is that difference enough to miss a bird you otherwise would have hit?

That's the point so many miss while obsessing over trivia that simply does not matter when dealing with shotguns used to shoot flying objects.
 
Sobrepuesta said:
BADDUCK said:
And their [there] is a difference in POI that you can demonstrate on the pattern board.
How much of a difference, and at what distance?

Is that difference enough to miss a bird you otherwise would have hit?

That's the point so many miss while obsessing over trivia that simply does not matter when dealing with shotguns used to shoot flying objects.
With the rifle the 160 grain .280 bullet the difference is about 1" at 100 yards. Not really meaningful. With the shotgun the difference is about 6" at 40 yards. Would it make me completly miiss a duck at 40 yards, maybe, maybe not. But along with other factors, like wind and quick changes in flight angle, it could cause me to cripple several birds a year. Unacceptable.

On the skeet range a chip counts, not so in hunting.
 
BADDUCK said:
Sobrepuesta said:
BADDUCK said:
And their [there] is a difference in POI that you can demonstrate on the pattern board.
How much of a difference, and at what distance?

Is that difference enough to miss a bird you otherwise would have hit?

That's the point so many miss while obsessing over trivia that simply does not matter when dealing with shotguns used to shoot flying objects.
With the rifle the 160 grain .280 bullet the difference is about 1" at 100 yards. Not really meaningful. With the shotgun the difference is about 6" at 40 yards. Would it make me completly miiss a duck at 40 yards, maybe, maybe not. But along with other factors, like wind and quick changes in flight angle, it could cause me to cripple several birds a year. Unacceptable.

On the skeet range a chip counts, not so in hunting.
The size of an effective pattern at 40 yds is about 30". Moving the center of it 6" in any direction means that a hit that was a center punch will still be a good hit 6" in any direction. Along those lines, a hit that is marginal because the center of your pattern moved 6" would have still been a marginal hit before. So the change in pattern center location that you think is so drastic really isn't.

Now you seem to think that a 1" POI shift at 100 yards with a rifle is not a big deal. And at 100 yards it isn't. However, at 600 yards it may result in a clean miss depending on your target.

We probably will have to agree to disagree.
 
That's the point so many miss while obsessing over trivia that simply does not matter when dealing with shotguns used to shoot flying objects.[/quote]

With the rifle the 160 grain .280 bullet the difference is about 1" at 100 yards. Not really meaningful. With the shotgun the difference is about 6" at 40 yards. Would it make me completly miiss a duck at 40 yards, maybe, maybe not. But along with other factors, like wind and quick changes in flight angle, it could cause me to cripple several birds a year. Unacceptable.
On the skeet range a chip counts, not so in hunting.[/quote]

The size of an effective pattern at 40 yds is about 30". Moving the center of it 6" in any direction means that a hit that was a center punch will still be a good hit 6" in any direction. Along those lines, a hit that is marginal because the center of your pattern moved 6" would have still been a marginal hit before. So the change in pattern center location that you think is so drastic really isn't.

Now you seem to think that a 1" POI shift at 100 yards with a rifle is not a big deal. And at 100 yards it isn't. However, at 600 yards it may result in a clean miss depending on your target.

We probably will have to agree to disagree.[/quote]

I'm not stupid enough to shoot at live game in the field at 600 yards, are you?

Bullet drop at 600 yards is over 5 feet with either bullet, making the 1" difference at 100 inconsequential.

Clearly you dont have a working knowledge of external ballistics.

I not going to agree to disagree, you are simply wrong.
 
I believe the true effective pattern of shotguns is about 25" of sure kills on birds and smoked targets. The other 5" can be iffy. Which makes knowing what your gun and shell does at distance even more important.
I don't think at skeet distances there is enough difference to matter but 40+I do and most definitely with hard kicking steel waterfowl loads. I can affect poi by how hard I hold a gun-rifle/shot shell/slugs.

In a book written by an experienced author and shotgun expert he stated a shotgun can move up to 2 inches while the shot/slug is in the barrel. I will find it and give his name and the book.
 
A 1 inch miss at 100 yards is a 6 inch miss at 600 yards, all else being equal (leaving atmospheric conditions out of this equation) ...if you're shooting prairie dogs, then its a clean miss...If you're shooting deer, if you dialed the wind right... and aimed center of the kill zone, you'd still kill it clean.

Barrel time has the same effect on any round fired in a barrel that is not fixed solid and cannot move...longer barrel time means more time for recoil to move the barrel, and it usually moves up but it depends on the gun and how its stocked...stock cast can also send it off to the side....think about it, it makes sense...trap shooters seem to do better with longer barrels, longer barrels shoot higher by virtue of the increased barrel time, trap shooters also like a gun that shoots high...I'm thinking barrel time is part of the reason they like the longer barrels, even if they don't know it matters.

I couldn't help but chime in...you guys stumbled right into the one thing I do consider myself to be fairly well educated on...long range rifle shooting...I've been doing it since I was 10 (33 years ago), and I can fairly state that I'm good at it.

My deer rifle is a Nosler M48 Custom in 280 Ackley Improved...I shoot mostly 160 grain Nosler Accubond bullets fired at 3,020 fps, those do fine on deer out to 800 yards, thats where they drop below 1,800 fps, they don't expand well below that...If I'm shooting at game any further than 800 I use 168 grain Berger VLD's fired at 2,940 fps.

I'm just getting started in this shotgun game...but when it comes to rifles...I've got some nice toys :D and many years of experience playing with them.

I could post a bunch of pictures and stuff of me showing off...but I'm more proud of passing on what I know to my young son, who took his first deer this past year at well over 200 yards.

Getting ready to squeeze...


Done deal...1 shot and down (7mm-08 by the way)


Then went back the next day and took his first buck (a spike) at 30 feet.....from the ground...


A video of him hitting the 200 yard steel at the range...8 years old....this was last year, he is now hitting at 500 and making his own wind observations and adjustments....start em young and teach em right!

 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts