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Syreel said:
The reason for the shooters number pinned centrally on shooters back is for the referee to identify who is shooting!
If I have to identify a shooter, I do not walk behind them to read their number. I simply walk up to him/her, stick out my hand, introduce myself and welcome to them to the most challenging (yet friendliest) parcour in all of FITASC. I have always gotten a name in return, that I can match up to the score sheets provided by the shoot administration.

During shooting, I always call the next shooter into the peg by name. I can always identify who is shooting, because he/she has responded to his/her name. It's a pretty simple system that has yet to fail.

Numbers on the shooter's back? Yeah, I guess I have seen shooter wear numbers on their backs. I can't ever recall paying attention to them, however.
 
skeetjunkie - I'm with you 100% on waving red/yellow cards and timing shooters. Neither will happen on my parcours unless I'm absolutely required to do so.

I am holding out hope that at least the ridiculous red/yellow cards don't make it in to the NSCA rules. There is enough to juggle and watch over without getting stupid.

My job as a FITASC ref is to run my parcour safely and efficiently, to present and score targets fairly, to watch for infractions of the rules and correct them as necessary.... all while providing a quality entertainment and recreational experience for my shooters.

I can't see how waving red/yellow cards around or forcing shooters to rush to their next shot adds to the quality of the shooter's recreational experience. I will admit, however, that it may be possible that the purpose of FITASC Sporting is viewed differently by the folks who write the International rules.
 
I also agree about the cards; I have them, don't think I'll ever need them for the shoots we see here. A polite word goes a long way in preventing ill feelings or delaying the game.

SJ - glad you can run your folks through in 40; we try, but unless I can get the first squad started even 5 minutes sooner, by the third or fourth group, we're starting to get delays. Some of that will depend a lot on the target presentation; if they are hard to see; show birds take more time, if they are long or slow birds and report pairs, that adds precious seconds here and few extra there. That said, the latest we overran by the end of the day was about 15 minutes.

Most of the shoots I have worked either schedule a half hour break for lunch (that they provide) or we have a roving ref who moves around giving folks a lunch and bathroom break.

I understand the reasoning behind the 15 second rule; especially at very large shoots; I just don't see that being a big deal. I will announce it in the beginning just so folks are aware - most are food at self-timing themselves.
 
Barring trap difficulties, getting an experienced full group of 6 shooters through a parcour in 35-45 minutes is not a problem. Even with a first-time shooter or two, the vast majority of the delays come from trap issues. One broken trap can set a group of 24 shooters (old style FITASC, the only way to play the game) back as long as it takes to fix the trap.

The absolute best way to deal with this is to schedule at least 50, and preferably 60, minutes for each parcour. This gives shooters, referees, trap repair folks, everyone a bit of flex time after each rotation to accommodate all the thousands of things that can delay an outdoor event that relies on complex mechanical devices. I understand that this sometimes can't happen, but in those circumstances extra care has to be taken to make sure that the traps are uber-reliable, and easily and safely accessible for repair/filling as needed.

If the details are taken care of by the shoot management beforehand, and enough time is scheduled to move between pegs and parcours without rushing, the requirement to speed up the shooter from 20 to 15 seconds becomes meaningless. The rule change seems to move the responsibility to keep on schedule from the shoot management to the shooter, which - to me - is the wrong way to go.

I never, ever start a group of shooters early because someone is inevitably running "just-on-time." I have very little patience for shooters who show up late, and fortunately neither do the rules.
 
As an older shooter, especially on a dark day, I often have to give my eyes a few seconds to get a focus before calling for a target. By the time a shooter resets their foot position for say the next single, reloads, remounts, and calls for the target, 15 seconds seems overly restrictive, especially for some older shooters.

If an average Parcour consists of 6 pairs and 13 singles, each shooter makes ready to shoot 19 times per Parcour. In theory, reducing the time allowance by five seconds would result in a maximum of 95 seconds or a minute and 35 seconds "saved" per shooter. But are we in that big a hurry to complete something that most of us find quite enjoyable? Despite reputed reputation suggesting otherwise, are stopwatches also commonly found in French bedrooms?

Mais non!!
 
How are you not able to shoot or break the target with this new rule?
 
DrMike said:
If I have to identify a shooter, I do not walk behind them to read their number. I simply walk up to him/her, stick out my hand, introduce myself and welcome to them to the most challenging (yet friendliest) parcour in all of FITASC. I have always gotten a name in return, that I can match up to the score sheets provided by the shoot administration.
+1
 
FITASC, one stupid set of rules after another. I'm pretty much done with it.

It's getting like registered skeet, they have a 10 second time rule.
 
Eriehunter said:
FITASC, one stupid set of rules after another. I'm pretty much done with it.

It's getting like registered skeet, they have a 10 second time rule.
Counter point;

Yes there are rules, but the rules prevent;
- talking by others while you're shooting.
- golf carts rolling up on you when you're ready to call pull
- lollipop targets designed to bore you into missing one or two in the third or fourth pair.
- score keepers who don't know the first thing about our game.
And, the rules provide for;
- educated refs
- targets salty enough you have to focus just to break a single.
- on time start times
- a scoring system that is transparent open for everyone to see after each hoop.

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 
At one World in the US, they had to increase the standard time from 9 minutes per squad to 11 minutes. Why, it was "Who is on first, who is on second , what choke do I need..."! Experienced FITASC shooters can do it under that 9 minutes. I was on a squad some years ago with 7 shooters all experienced International US shooters at Addieville. The first parcour with a breakdown was 45 minutes. The next was 40 minutes. The third was 35 and the fourth 40 minutes. All within World times per peg and we had an extra shooter.

Go to a FITASC shoot outside North America and experience interesting quality targets, great squad movement and proper rule enforcement. Remember that the refs are international and do not speak everyone's language, therefore cards were introduced.

A very good point:

Yes there are rules, but the rules prevent;
- talking by others while you're shooting.
- golf carts rolling up on you when you're ready to call pull
- lollipop targets designed to bore you into missing one or two in the third or fourth pair.
- score keepers who don't know the first thing about our game.
And, the rules provide for;
- educated refs
- targets salty enough you have to focus just to break a single.
- on time start times
- a scoring system that is transparent open for everyone to see after each hoop.

I would invite everyone to experience interesting targets in an interesting setting with much wildlife, very inexpensive food etc.. to come to Hungary next year for the World. It will be my third trip there. BTW, get a vignette for the highways at the first gas station outside the airport. They scan license plates on the highways. You can receive an expensive charge to your credit car if you don't!
 
Some good points made by you guys here and agree with tailoring your approach to the shoot you are working.

Time between calls.
If a shooter has gone over 20 secs I just remind them of the rule and occasionally have had to give a 2nd reminder.
Trying to quantify this a little, my guestimate is at a 4 day international shoot I have reminded maybe 4 shooters who have gone over 20secs and maybe checked the timing on another 12 ish. So using awolverinegbs calculation, that has saved one and half minutes over a layout a day by speeding up the one shooter, providing all the other refs have done the same (new system).
Under the new rule if the other 12 shooters now have to speed up by a couple of seconds that is maybe a further 12 minutes saved per layout a day. Not hugely significant but a saving never the less I suppose. Of course for every slow shooter you get a quick one which balances time out anyway. Average time across the board I would guestimate is 10 seconds per shooter (?).

Time for parcour
Agreed it is far more enjoyable for both Competitors and Refs when you are not against the watch. Some good points by Dr Mike over management preparation, little things like with new system, having the extra target (s) on the centre stands, as 1st and last stand have additional scoreboard duties to deal with, help keep time down.
I also believe that unfortunately for old system the better the parcour the longer it will take to shoot. The pegs will be widely spread to alter target presentation/angles, there will be a good mix including long/incoming targets which are not shot instantly, shooters will be turning their feet to address the target variation and just taking a little longer to figure the targets out.

Back Numbers
They are useful at the large International shoots, when there are maybe 50+ squads going through a stand to keep track of who is or should be in the hoop. Especially if there are 6 names on the card and there are no shows in the squad. Also helps if you find the shooters name unpronounceable!

Cards
We use them in the UK, but I just raise it out of my top pocket to show willing. Certainly would never wave in a shooters face.

Regards

Leigh
 
KRIEGHOFFK80 said:
What does the shooter do when the club doesn't give out numbers.

I have seen some very big shoots at some very big clubs not give out numbers.
Quite obviously, Terry, with the addition of this new rule, if the club doesn't "give out" numbers, all shooters are in violation of the rule and all will be scored zero without firing a shot. Paid and disqualified on the same receipt, if you will.

I'm not seeing anything in there about oneounceload's common sense rules.
 
As per Dr Mikes post earlier in this thread, the wearing of back numbers is a long standing rule, that only relates to competitions large enough to warrant issuing them.
They will not usually be a feature at ordinary registered events

Regards

Leigh
 
Around here, they do not offer FITASC at "ordinary registered events" as they do not get the number of shooters to justify the added cost. So that means it is typically available at State shoots and the slew of FL "Big Blasts" that happen in the first few months of the year. Since those shoots DO draw the large number of shooters and everything is squadded, numbers are the norm. As someone else mentioned earlier, when it gets hot many shed their shooting vests and opt for a pouch. As long as the number is on that, I do not mind. One thing I have noticed is that if you ref the same basic geographic area often enough, you get to remember at least the faces, if not the names, of most of the shooters. That helps speed things up in the beginning and keeps things friendly.
 
oneounceload said:
As someone else mentioned earlier, when it gets hot many shed their shooting vests and opt for a pouch. As long as the number is on that, I do not mind.
So what you are saying is you're not going to enforce the rules.
 
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