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#121 ·
So as we can see, there remains disagreement on interpreting the LETTER of the rule. It points to the fact the rule needs to be clarified because the way it's currently written is too vague. But in the meantime, I believe this is where the INTENT of the rule should prevail -- and further believe the intent of that rule is a target should be scored "dead" if in the opinion of the field judge the target was clearly broken by the shooters shot in some fashion.
 
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#122 ·
Just a thot--scoring correctly is the MOST important rule. This needs to be revised (like NOW).
 
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#123 ·
sera said:
Just a thot--scoring correctly is the MOST important rule. This needs to be revised (like NOW).
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Agreed. But we know how quickly the NSCA moves on this type of revision, so until it is ...
 
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#124 ·
Rooster booster said:
If a vaporized target is scored as dead, then a vaporized part of the target can result in the same call.
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If a dusted target is scored lost, then a dusted part of a target can result in the same call.

"Vaporized" targets simply do not. There is always a temporary but visible cloud of pieces hanging the air. This in contrast to the mysterious targets described here, whose pieces vanish without any trace.
 
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#125 ·
Denver1911 said:
-> "Opinion of the field judge."
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JacksBack said:
So as we can see, there remains disagreement on interpreting the LETTER of the rule. It points to the fact the rule needs to be clarified because the way it's currently written is too vague. But in the meantime, I believe this is where the INTENT of the rule should prevail -- and further believe the intent of that rule is a target should be scored "dead" if in the opinion of the field judge the target was clearly broken by the shooters shot in some fashion.
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The only disagreements I've seen are how many letters are added or subtracted (as in the quote above) to the language of the rule before it serves the purpose and intent of the poster.

It seems that this has now devolved to hanging all hope on the word "opinion." If that's the way you want your targets scored, on the opinions and whims of the field judge, then so be it. I will warn you through, opinions can and do work both ways.

As for me, I'll take - and make - my calls according the actual letter of the rule, adding and/or subtracting nothing.

And with that, I'm out.
 
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#126 ·
DrMike said:
As for me, I'll take - and make - my calls according the actual letter of the rule, adding and/or subtracting nothing.

And with that, I'm out.
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Well then, we agree. We'll both make -and take- our calls according to the actual letter of the ruling, adding and/or subtracting nothing.

{hs#

I might call dead w/o seeing a chip and be fully compliant with the actual letter of the ruling, adding and/or subtracting nothing. You might call lost or no-bird on the same target and also be fully compliant with the actual letter of the ruling, adding and/or subtracting nothing.

This has been fun.
 
#127 ·
blackandgold said:
DrMike said:
Rooster booster said:
If a vaporized target is scored as dead, then a vaporized part of the target can result in the same call.
Click to expand...
If a dusted target is scored lost, then a dusted part of a target can result in the same call.

"Vaporized" targets simply do not. There is always a temporary but visible cloud of pieces hanging the air. This in contrast to the mysterious targets described here, whose pieces vanish without any trace.
Click to expand...
{hs# {hs# {hs#
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I'd disagree...... I have many times in 45+ years seen a target reduced to 'dust', which I would add no visible 'piece' survived. Therefore, if seeing a portion of the target missing, with only a 'dust' cloud visible, and also being able to see a less than whole and intact target being left.....well you can certainly understand this, but choose not to.

Which is fine. When you're scoring, call them as you see fit, others will do the same. One thing I've not seen discussed here is often viewed on a skeet field. The target is broken into several pieces, but the center disc survives, apparently intact. If you've ever seen that, then seeing the same disc disappear after the shot just shouldn't seem so hard to understand, visible piece or not.

When I'm judging, I call them as I see them, sometimes with input from onlookers, but in any case such as those described......tie goes to the runner when I'm judging. Which is well within the intent of the rules of scoring.
 
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#128 ·
I guess what I do not get is that if a target comes out whole, the shooter shoots, the center mysteriously disappears how come NO ONE saw something?
 
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#129 ·
I guess I should start a thread on "dust."

Fact is, the year before the PSCA died, they announced they were going to revise their rules and make "clearly visible dust" a kill for the next year :shock:

This was a direct result of the PSCA shoot held at Coyote Springs in Tucson during that Western Regional. Coyote Springs is a club that throws primarily White Flyer Bios. For those not aware, a Bio is harder to break than a regular pitch target, gets even harder the longer it sits out in the heat, and the binder material (back then) was white, not black, and so easier to see in daylight as it reflects more than black dust. In fact, the white binder and dust is so prevalent, White Flyer has been working on an all black Bio for that reason. We shot some of the first prototype earlier this year, and the target is so black that they don't even reflect off the dome under the Sun, so definitely different to shoot at than a pitch standard any way you cut it. I understand they are trying to revise that binder formula to be a bit more similarly reflective to pitch. Anyway, back to Tucson, there were a LOT of "Pro" shooters getting "dusted" that entire week, especially on the longer PSCA targets, also a lot of it visible at night during the shoot-offs, and as a result the PSCA decided it would be counted as a kill for the next season...

You are all free to argue this one all you want :mrgreen:
 
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#130 ·
oneounceload said:
I guess what I do not get is that if a target comes out whole, the shooter shoots, the center mysteriously disappears how come NO ONE saw something?
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Who says they didn't. I've seen small pieces emerge when the center was punched out, no pieces, but a lot of dust, and nothing at all but one instant the target was flying great and whole, the next instant, the center was gone.

So many possibilities for why 'something' wasn't seen....but there's a huge difference in a 'good' target in flight, and a defective one. If I'm judging, and don't see anything to make me call 'no bird', and you shoot, center, or other piece of the targets disappears, I'm giving you the '/'.
 
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#131 ·
oneounceload said:
I guess what I do not get is that if a target comes out whole, the shooter shoots, the center mysteriously disappears how come NO ONE saw something?
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All I can figure is the debris/pieces are dark and blend into the background

As I posted earlier, I believe that we score a fair number of targets as lost that have pieces broken off and just not seen. Many factors play into that.
 
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#132 ·
dpe2002 said:
oneounceload said:
I guess what I do not get is that if a target comes out whole, the shooter shoots, the center mysteriously disappears how come NO ONE saw something?
Click to expand...
All I can figure is the debris/pieces are dark and blend into the background

As I posted earlier, I believe that we score a fair number of targets as lost that have pieces broken off and just not seen. Many factors play into that.
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Historically, they were actually mostly light gray, and as such reflect the surrounding light -- be it blue sky, tree shadows or tan grass -- in short, the "chips" got ejected immediately behind the target and blended well with their surroundings.

Edit: This phenomena still happens with the newer all black Bio's we started shooting earlier this year -- several of us have witnessed it more than once.
 
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#134 ·
JacksBack said:
dpe2002 said:
oneounceload said:
I guess what I do not get is that if a target comes out whole, the shooter shoots, the center mysteriously disappears how come NO ONE saw something?
Click to expand...
All I can figure is the debris/pieces are dark and blend into the background

As I posted earlier, I believe that we score a fair number of targets as lost that have pieces broken off and just not seen. Many factors play into that.
Click to expand...
Historically, they were actually mostly light gray, and as such reflect the surrounding light -- be it blue sky, tree shadows or tan grass -- in short, the "chips" got ejected immediately behind the target and blended well with their surroundings.

Edit: This phenomena still happens with the newer all black Bio's we started shooting earlier this year -- several of us have witnessed it more than once.
Click to expand...
Plus, the rabbit target is rolling so what you want to see (broken center) only has to travel a few inches and then it's laying on the ground and the remaining rolling donut obscures what you want to see too for a micro second as it rolls past the broken center debris making there way to the ground. When the bird is in the air, you have a lot more time to see the tiny broken pieces before they fall to the ground. Plus more time for the main part of the target to move somewhere else while you search the sky for any small broken pieces.
 
#136 ·
The horse is still dead, please quit kicking as the stink is getting bad.

Remember please, that reopening a locked topic is a banning offense.
 
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