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Fire at the MokeMate pedal factory: a wake up call for ALL !

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#21 ·
Steve, my smoke/CO detectors are throughout the house and basement. ALL of them went off within 30 seconds of the start of the fire and they were LOUD. Strongly suggest that you look into upgrading.
 
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#22 ·
1st thanks for posting this. Connected smoke alarms need to be wired together and to AC wiring.
Any new construction requires it. They do now have wireless systems though. They still won't be AC hardwired, but they can interconnect so they all go off if one detects smoke.
Kidde RF-SM-DC Wireless Smoke Alarm is one example.

Jim
 
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#23 ·
Dry chem is very corrosive upon contact with moisture, in the air as well as in the lungs. It is one reason why the fire service is not too keen on its use and especially by citizens without full protective gear. As a firefighter (volunteer and a brief stint as a career firefighter) and a fire investigator, we did not investigate a fire scene in which dry chem was used except with self contained breathing apparatus. N95 masks and especially the surgical mask jokes did not full prevent one from breathing in dry chem. That is not to mention the carcinogens that are created when modern synthetic materials are burned.

Of more than a dozen residential fires that resulted in at least one death I've responded to in one way or another, the majority of deaths occured when the resident attempted to fight the fire. The prevalence of petroleum based synthetic materials has become pervasive over the last few decades and between the more rapid heat build up, increased toxins up to and including nerve agents, and denser smoke results in much faster incapacitation than ever. It can take only a couple of breaths to cause disorientation, a few more for unconsciousness then death.

This is exacerbated by the resident not considering a rapid evacuation route when things worsen. In the excitement of a totally unplanned incident, the resident often puts themselves in a position where they have to pass by the fire to escape. This is especially true in a garage and one of two places I nearly lost my life in a fire.

Glad you have come out of this unharmed but get a check up asap. I can't recommend fighting a fire these days, it is too risky for a whole host of reasons. The risk/benefit analysis is not there to me. I see fighting even a contents fire without protective equipment as akin to, "Here, watch this and hold my beer."

I would also advise calling the fire department even if you think the fire is out. Far too often I have responded to similar incidents as the resident didn't realize the fire extended to a closed area and plunked away until it flared up. Then it becomes a really bad deal. There is no guarantee the FD will find a plunking area but odds are they will as training and experience has taught them what to look for.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
uglydog said:
Dry chem is very corrosive upon contact with moisture, in the air as well as in the lungs. It is one reason why the fire service is not too keen on its use and especially by citizens without full protective gear. As a firefighter (volunteer and a brief stint as a career firefighter) and a fire investigator, we did not investigate a fire scene in which dry chem was used except with self contained breathing apparatus. N95 masks and especially the surgical mask jokes did not full prevent one from breathing in dry chem. That is not to mention the carcinogens that are created when modern synthetic materials are burned.

Of more than a dozen residential fires that resulted in at least one death I've responded to in one way or another, the majority of deaths occured when the resident attempted to fight the fire. The prevalence of petroleum based synthetic materials has become pervasive over the last few decades and between the more rapid heat build up, increased toxins up to and including nerve agents, and denser smoke results in much faster incapacitation than ever. It can take only a couple of breaths to cause disorientation, a few more for unconsciousness then death.

This is exacerbated by the resident not considering a rapid evacuation route when things worsen. In the excitement of a totally unplanned incident, the resident often puts themselves in a position where they have to pass by the fire to escape. This is especially true in a garage and one of two places I nearly lost my life in a fire.

Glad you have come out of this unharmed but get a check up asap. I can't recommend fighting a fire these days, it is too risky for a whole host of reasons. The risk/benefit analysis is not there to me. I see fighting even a contents fire without protective equipment as akin to, "Here, watch this and hold my beer."

I would also advise calling the fire department even if you think the fire is out. Far too often I have responded to similar incidents as the resident didn't realize the fire extended to a closed area and plunked away until it flared up. Then it becomes a really bad deal. There is no guarantee the FD will find a plunking area but odds are they will as training and experience has taught them what to look for.
Click to expand...
First off, thank you for your response, experience, insight, and recommendations .

However, there are 2 things in your post that I take exception with (highlighted above).

I think it's going to be hard to tell a resident to "NOT" fight a fire in their home, especially if there are pets involved, and property, treasure etc.

I would be on the evening news if I didn't act, and just let the fire go unchallenged.

Secondly, calling the FD "after" the fact (in my case) would be REALLY bad advice I believe.

As far as detecting hot-spots and flare-ups, I could (and did) do that myself. I have IR thermometers, one of which was actually on the bench at the time of the fire, and it's face was all melted to one side, but still working. I used that to look for hot-spots.

The FD visit would not go smoothly, and would have far-lasting, down-stream ramifications that I just don't need in my life right now.

I was in violation of just about every fire code imaginable, - even future ones. Plus with the anti-gun culture cultivated in the Seattle area, the FD would also turn into a PD visit, and then a CNN visit.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Road Man said:
When I was a teenager while I was away at scout camp our house caught fire. The fire was caused by bad wiring in my bedroom. My bedroom was a total loss, and the rest of the house suffered considerable smoke damage. Ever since then I have also been a bit overboard about fire extinguishers.

Two weeks ago I replaced all of the fire extinguishers in my home. It was also time to replace one of the smoke / CO2 detectors. I also replaced the fire extinguisher in my wife's car.

I'm glad you put the fire out before too much damage. About 3 years ago a fire broke out at work in a dumpster at the loading dock. Before I got to the fire another worker had emptied 2 fire extinguishers with no effect on the fire, he was spraying at the top of the dumpster and the flames above the dumpster. I put the fire out using less than half of a fire extinguisher by spraying the dry chemical at the base of the flames. Just having an extinguisher is not enough, you also need to know how to use it.
Click to expand...
Good on you man !! This is what I wanted to hear !!

Coupla questions....

Why did you replace the fire extinguishers ? Do they have a maximum life span ?

In your wifes car, where did you place the fire extinguisher, and what type did you use ?

Thanks !
 
#27 ·
Republican said:
uglydog said:
Dry chem is very corrosive upon contact with moisture, in the air as well as in the lungs. It is one reason why the fire service is not too keen on its use and especially by citizens without full protective gear. As a firefighter (volunteer and a brief stint as a career firefighter) and a fire investigator, we did not investigate a fire scene in which dry chem was used except with self contained breathing apparatus. N95 masks and especially the surgical mask jokes did not full prevent one from breathing in dry chem. That is not to mention the carcinogens that are created when modern synthetic materials are burned.

Of more than a dozen residential fires that resulted in at least one death I've responded to in one way or another, the majority of deaths occured when the resident attempted to fight the fire. The prevalence of petroleum based synthetic materials has become pervasive over the last few decades and between the more rapid heat build up, increased toxins up to and including nerve agents, and denser smoke results in much faster incapacitation than ever. It can take only a couple of breaths to cause disorientation, a few more for unconsciousness then death.

This is exacerbated by the resident not considering a rapid evacuation route when things worsen. In the excitement of a totally unplanned incident, the resident often puts themselves in a position where they have to pass by the fire to escape. This is especially true in a garage and one of two places I nearly lost my life in a fire.

Glad you have come out of this unharmed but get a check up asap. I can't recommend fighting a fire these days, it is too risky for a whole host of reasons. The risk/benefit analysis is not there to me. I see fighting even a contents fire without protective equipment as akin to, "Here, watch this and hold my beer."

I would also advise calling the fire department even if you think the fire is out. Far too often I have responded to similar incidents as the resident didn't realize the fire extended to a closed area and plunked away until it flared up. Then it becomes a really bad deal. There is no guarantee the FD will find a plunking area but odds are they will as training and experience has taught them what to look for.
Click to expand...
First off, thank you for your response, experience, insight, and recommendations .

However, there are 2 things in your post that I take exception with (highlighted above).

I think it's going to be hard to tell a resident to "NOT" fight a fire in their home, especially if there are pets involved, and property, treasure etc.

I would be on the evening news if I didn't act, and just let the fire go unchallenged.

Secondly, calling the FD "after" the fact (in my case) would be REALLY bad advice I believe.

As far as detecting hot-spots and flare-ups, I could (and did) do that myself. I have IR thermometers, one of which was actually on the bench at the time of the fire, and it's face was all melted to one side, but still working. I used that to look for hot-spots.

The FD visit would not go smoothly, and would have far-lasting, down-stream ramifications that I just don't need in my life right now.

I was in violation of just about every fire code imaginable, - even future ones. Plus with the anti-gun culture cultivated in the Seattle area, the FD would also turn into a PD visit, and then a CNN visit.
Click to expand...
And there in a nutshell, in addition to cramming your space with all the wrong kinds of 'mix and matches' sums up just how stupid, blind lucky you were.........and hence my earlier comment about filing a claim and getting asked 'questions'.

And by all means, don't consider your neighbors, when your actions (or inactions) burn their house to the ground.
 
#28 ·
expected..
I'm just glad you got the fire put out.

fire extinguishers don't really expire, but they do have inspection and maintenance schedules.
yearly inspection.
simply a check to make sure it isn't broken or cracked or leaking,,,, also a good time to tip it over and shake the powder around.
6 year maintenance [requires a tear down and refill, replace the gauge if stuck, new seals etc.]

then a 12 year [6 year maint.] plus a hydro [pressure] test on the shell.
[by the time you get to this point just buy a new one, it's like a 5$ difference]
that's just for your typical A/B or A/B/C type extinguishers.

there's other procedures for other types of extinguishers.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
fiver said:
expected..
I'm just glad you got the fire put out.

fire extinguishers don't really expire, but they do have inspection and maintenance schedules.
yearly inspection.
simply a check to make sure it isn't broken or cracked or leaking,,,, also a good time to tip it over and shake the powder around.
6 year maintenance [requires a tear down and refill, replace the gauge if stuck, new seals etc.]

then a 12 year [6 year maint.] plus a hydro [pressure] test on the shell.
[by the time you get to this point just buy a new one, it's like a 5$ difference]
that's just for your typical A/B or A/B/C type extinguishers.

there's other procedures for other types of extinguishers.
Click to expand...
Thanks, - that's interesting, and helpful (and you are very knowledgeable)

Mine were at least 12-15 years old. But they worked, so I was blessed that way.

The clean-up is *really* freaking me out though. Taking a leaf blower seemed to spread it everywhere.

I bought 6 new ones today at Home Depot. They reclassified the exact (large) ones I had. They are now marked "!0 Lbs), where as the exact (old) ones I had at home were marked 15 Lbs 4 Os.

But the new (10 Lb) one is marked for a run time of 17-minutes, so "minutes" per pound doesn't seem to hold anymore.
 
#30 ·
Republican said:
Road Man said:
When I was a teenager while I was away at scout camp our house caught fire. The fire was caused by bad wiring in my bedroom. My bedroom was a total loss, and the rest of the house suffered considerable smoke damage. Ever since then I have also been a bit overboard about fire extinguishers.

Two weeks ago I replaced all of the fire extinguishers in my home. It was also time to replace one of the smoke / CO2 detectors. I also replaced the fire extinguisher in my wife's car.

I'm glad you put the fire out before too much damage. About 3 years ago a fire broke out at work in a dumpster at the loading dock. Before I got to the fire another worker had emptied 2 fire extinguishers with no effect on the fire, he was spraying at the top of the dumpster and the flames above the dumpster. I put the fire out using less than half of a fire extinguisher by spraying the dry chemical at the base of the flames. Just having an extinguisher is not enough, you also need to know how to use it.
Click to expand...
Good on you man !! This is what I wanted to hear !!

Coupla questions....

Why did you replace the fire extinguishers ? Do they have a maximum life span ?

In your wifes car, where did you place the fire extinguisher, and what type did you use ?

Thanks !
Click to expand...
I replaced the fire extinguishers because they were the disposable type and the little gauge indicated that they were at the line indicating that they were just heading into the "EMPTY" zone. If they were refillable I would have had them filled, but as disposables they were simply done. All pressure vessels have inspection intervals and since these were of a disposable type and can not be inspected and then refilled it was time to replace with new. The manufacturer does have an expiration date from manufacture on the pressure vessel. These were within months of that date.

My wife has a little Honda Fit wagon. The fire extinguisher is mounted to the side wall back in the cargo area up off the floor. I just got one at Menards that is intended for boats and cars. The Fit is a pretty small car and there really is no good place up in the passenger area.
 
#31 ·
Republican said:
YevetS said:
I got to the fire LATE because of a non functioning smoke alarm.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but here's the rub on that....

A functioning fire alarm does little good if you can't hear it.

I would have never heard it in my Ham radio room which is the furthest room away from the garage. Nor would I have heard it in the bedroom if I were sleeping.

I am told that there are hook-ups where one smoke detector can be linked to another to sound an alarm in another room.

I have all of that to look into still.

There is lot, and I mean LOTS that I need to re-vamp here. Just looking at the number of cans of spray paint high up on the shelves just a mere few feet from where the fire was gives me the shivers. And then all of the car stuff (oils etc.) on the shelves on the opposite side of the garage.

My two 9000's are covered with the yellow powder. What's worse, is I have MEC covers for each of them. The 20-gauge one is folded up laying on top of the machine.
Click to expand...
Current electrical code requires that if one detector goes off, they all go off. It's fairly simple. They're wired in series with 14-3 w/ground with the power source a lighting circuit. Those rarely get turned off.
 
#32 ·
Mine are not only hard wired, but they have a battery back up
 
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#33 ·
painter* said:
Current electrical code requires that if one detector goes off, they all go off. It's fairly simple. They're wired in series with 14-3 w/ground with the power source a lighting circuit. Those rarely get turned off.
Click to expand...
Very true, but most homes in the US pre date that code.

Steve
 
#34 ·
I agree with your decision not to call the fire dept. I have had two experiences.
We rented space in a large building to house our business. Our landlord had a fuse pop one time and quickly replaced it. He felt a little uneasy because of a slight smell. The fire dept was right across the street not 100 yards away. He called them saying it was not an emergency and could someone walk over just to check out the smell. Before you know it, fire trucks were in front and they evacuated several other businesses in attached buildings..Fully dressed firemen combed the whole block. The whole thing was a fiasco. A small professional fire dept had to justify there jobs.
The other time was when we owned a furniture business. Someone put a lit cigar in the side of a recliner and it caught fire. It was quickly discovered and I put it out.One of our employees called the fire department. Before you know it an arson investigator was asking questions about our finances and our marriage as if we set the fire. He also managed to piss off several customers while asking them questions where they were as if they caused the fire. The fire dept was of no use.
 
#35 ·
Steve,

Sorry to hear of the fire at your home. Glad everyone and your cats are OK.

I know we have had our differences but, I am being sincere.

Thanks for the reminder concerning fire extinguishers.

Be well and stay healthy.
 
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#36 ·
Republican said:
uglydog said:
Dry chem is very corrosive upon contact with moisture, in the air as well as in the lungs. It is one reason why the fire service is not too keen on its use and especially by citizens without full protective gear. As a firefighter (volunteer and a brief stint as a career firefighter) and a fire investigator, we did not investigate a fire scene in which dry chem was used except with self contained breathing apparatus. N95 masks and especially the surgical mask jokes did not full prevent one from breathing in dry chem. That is not to mention the carcinogens that are created when modern synthetic materials are burned.

Of more than a dozen residential fires that resulted in at least one death I've responded to in one way or another, the majority of deaths occured when the resident attempted to fight the fire. The prevalence of petroleum based synthetic materials has become pervasive over the last few decades and between the more rapid heat build up, increased toxins up to and including nerve agents, and denser smoke results in much faster incapacitation than ever. It can take only a couple of breaths to cause disorientation, a few more for unconsciousness then death.

This is exacerbated by the resident not considering a rapid evacuation route when things worsen. In the excitement of a totally unplanned incident, the resident often puts themselves in a position where they have to pass by the fire to escape. This is especially true in a garage and one of two places I nearly lost my life in a fire.

Glad you have come out of this unharmed but get a check up asap. I can't recommend fighting a fire these days, it is too risky for a whole host of reasons. The risk/benefit analysis is not there to me. I see fighting even a contents fire without protective equipment as akin to, "Here, watch this and hold my beer."

I would also advise calling the fire department even if you think the fire is out. Far too often I have responded to similar incidents as the resident didn't realize the fire extended to a closed area and plunked away until it flared up. Then it becomes a really bad deal. There is no guarantee the FD will find a plunking area but odds are they will as training and experience has taught them what to look for.
Click to expand...
First off, thank you for your response, experience, insight, and recommendations .

However, there are 2 things in your post that I take exception with (highlighted above).

I think it's going to be hard to tell a resident to "NOT" fight a fire in their home, especially if there are pets involved, and property, treasure etc.

I would be on the evening news if I didn't act, and just let the fire go unchallenged.

Secondly, calling the FD "after" the fact (in my case) would be REALLY bad advice I believe.

As far as detecting hot-spots and flare-ups, I could (and did) do that myself. I have IR thermometers, one of which was actually on the bench at the time of the fire, and it's face was all melted to one side, but still working. I used that to look for hot-spots.

The FD visit would not go smoothly, and would have far-lasting, down-stream ramifications that I just don't need in my life right now.

I was in violation of just about every fire code imaginable, - even future ones. Plus with the anti-gun culture cultivated in the Seattle area, the FD would also turn into a PD visit, and then a CNN visit.
Click to expand...
Actually, it is a very easy thing to say, I've done it for 30 some years and I was far from the first as well as not the last to do so. The difficulty is getting through the thick skull of the listener that risking one's life for "toys" or baubles is a rather stupid reason to give one's life or health. As I wrote earlier, it's a "hold my beer" equivalent.

The best means of convincing someone of their folly is dragging the limp, lifeless, blistered, maybe even charred body of a victim who felt they did not need the protective equipment or tools firefighters have found needed. Failing that, the next best convincer is to be knocked to one's knees gagging and blinded by smoke (and whatever else is being wafted through the room) beleiving you will never get out. I've done the first more than I wish, the second only through survivor statements but neither is something I want to experience for myself.

As I also mentioned, modern materials are nearly all synthetics which burn much faster and hotter than the natural fibers of a few decades ago. These same synthetics are rife with chemicals that when heated form into dangerous gases such as phosgene and cyanide among others. And that is not taking into account carcinogens and other potential health problems like emphysema, congestive heart failure, and the like.

The vast majority of people are ignorant of the risks involved in fighting a fire. That is good as it means fires aren't common. It is bad as the lack of exposure means one's decision making is then formed off what they imagine or worse, see on TV or the movies.

As for checking for extension - you really used and trusted the readings of an obviously damaged instrument!? Seriously?

As for using IR thermometers and cameras, they work very well at finding a hidden fire in most cases but they are terrible at finding that which is only plunking away. In the latter case, the old fashioned Mark I eyeball is about the only reliable detection device. At a minimum, an inspection hole knocked into the wall at the point of major charring and to each side to beyond the area of charring plus corresponding holes higher up in order to check for smoke is a minimum and removal of the affected Sheetrock is best as it needs to be removed anyway. This not only allows good visual of the hidden areas but also removes possible ignition sources.

This subject is one I feel strongly about, one's life and health is much more important than some material possessions or pride. If one is worried how their activities will be viewed from a legal standpoint, maybe one needs to review and evaluate what they are doing and where it is being done and take steps to mitigate those risks.
 
#38 ·
Gonna go buy a couple of more fire extinguishers tomorrow and look into these interconnected smoke alarms.
 
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#40 ·
Those interconnected smoke alarms are great, until one goes wacky and you get driven crazy trying to find the goofy one.
I had one that would trip the whole system at 2AM for a couple of beeps and then stay quiet. I fixed it by replacing every one of them with new replacement models from Home Depot. Problem gone, but they still work when I fire up and run a piece of equipment in the garage too long.
 
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