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This Peddler guy sounds like the nightmare that all customer service reps hate. Nothing anyone can do will please him, so it better to not even try.

Then he talks to a trigger specialist and has the same reaction. Give me a break! :roll:
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Halwg said:
This Peddler guy sounds like the nightmare that all customer service reps hate. Nothing anyone can do will please him, so it better to not even try.

Then he talks to a trigger specialist and has the same reaction. Give me a break! :roll:
That was the problem. They wouldn't allow me to talk to a "trigger specialist". The trigger itself is very simple, maybe "crude" would be a better term. Perhaps if you actually owned an M2 you would understand. I always love it when someone who knows nothing chimes in. Thanks! And the horse you rode in on.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
RandyWakeman said:
Paddler said:
Randy, when you have a chance, maybe you could mike your hammer spring; length, diameter and wire diameter. I cannot fathom how they improve that trigger much using the stock springs.
Benelli USA adjusted my M2 trigger, so that puts it full circle. :|
Oops, I forgot, I was thinking Dave did it. I'm going to buy a trigger scale and replacement springs and play with it a bit. I already made some lapping compound using the red Mobil 1 grease and Rottenstone to polish the contact surfaces, so they're mirror smooth now. Talked to a neighbor of mine about drilling and tapping the sear for a set screw, but he thinks the sear is probably hardened so tapping it wouldn't be possible. It will be a fun project.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
fiver said:
wow...
I'd have sold and bought another gun or three by now.
I'm persistent, what can I say? I like the weight, looks and handling of the M2s, 6# 1/4oz for the 20 gauge, 7# 5/8oz for the 12. Great mud guns. Besides, the deal at Scheel's was complicated because I traded my old M2 in and they treated me well, plus I received some rewards cards. I'll get the triggers done and will be good to go. I have a bunch of other guns that are too nice to take out in the marsh, these guns can and will tolerate rough use. So, they fill an important niche. I just think it's ridiculous for a gun maker to say that a trigger up to 7# is "in spec". Maybe Benelli could study the Remington 1100 design.
 
Paddler said:
Oops, I forgot, I was thinking Dave did it. I'm going to buy a trigger scale and replacement springs and play with it a bit. I already made some lapping compound using the red Mobil 1 grease and Rottenstone to polish the contact surfaces, so they're mirror smooth now. Talked to a neighbor of mine about drilling and tapping the sear for a set screw, but he thinks the sear is probably hardened so tapping it wouldn't be possible. It will be a fun project.
You and I have quite a different view of "fun." :lol: :lol: :lol:

A Lyman trigger gauge is a must have . . . and, it works on all firearms. https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-7832248-El ... 2QGLS?th=1
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
RandyWakeman said:
Paddler said:
Oops, I forgot, I was thinking Dave did it. I'm going to buy a trigger scale and replacement springs and play with it a bit. I already made some lapping compound using the red Mobil 1 grease and Rottenstone to polish the contact surfaces, so they're mirror smooth now. Talked to a neighbor of mine about drilling and tapping the sear for a set screw, but he thinks the sear is probably hardened so tapping it wouldn't be possible. It will be a fun project.
You and I have quite a different view of "fun." :lol: :lol: :lol:

A Lyman trigger gauge is a must have . . . and, it works on all firearms. https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-7832248-El ... 2QGLS?th=1
Yeah, I love tinkering with stuff. Instead of buying a trigger gauge, I duplicated the Official NRA weight system sold by Brownell's:

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tool ... d9710.aspx

It's more work, but I only need it temporarily. A few years ago I poured a bunch of 1# rock cod weights, and combined with a few lighter weights and duck decoy weights, I was able to duplicate Benelli's measurement on the 20 gauge of 5# 4oz. Having the trigger group out of the gun really helps. The system is very consistent and accurate, as my postal scale reads down to 1/8 ounce.

I mixed up a bit more lapping compound and lapped the sear and hammer again. I'm not going to touch the sear. It's only .031" wide to begin with, and given how much play there is between the hammer and trigger and their respective pins, it's probably best to leave well enough alone. It's a duck gun, after all, not a bench gun. I'll just replace the springs with reduced force constants from Taran Tactical or similar. Good news is the grittiness seems to be better after lapping, and I expect the new springs will result in a trigger pull of ~3.5#. I'll report back after I replace the springs. It will be all good, as except for the triggers and the oversized bolt handles that can bugger up the receivers, I really like the guns.
 
I guess you can say it was "fun." Eventually.

It is a Great Shotgun... Eventually

Image


This isn't the type of article you'll find in mainstream gun rags, exactly why I decided to write it. Many of you have likely had similar experiences with several shotguns, rifles, and handguns, so you'll be able to relate. The subject matter here is a great shotgun, the Benelli M2 20 gauge, with a 24 inch barrel. At least, it is now. I tested the Benelli M2 20 gauge five years ago, in 2010. Although some would rightfully say that I need another twenty gauge like an Eskimo really needs a snow cone, I generally liked it. And, I bought it. It is a Realtree APG®, ComforTech® model, $1599 MSRP.

The M2 has an obnoxious silver center bead on the rib that is just bizarre. Like the fat fellow that when he gets his shoes shined, he has to take the guy's word for it, the same is true of the front bead on the M2. The center bead obliterates the view of the front bead, so whether it is there or not in actual shooting is anyone's guess. Center beads on field shotguns make no sense; a center bead that blocks out the front bead makes even less sense. There is no easy way to unscrew the center bead, apparently a pin vise is an "iffy" proposition (according to Benelli), so attempting to twist it off with pliers broke it off flush with the rib to my immense delight.

The shell stop on the M2 makes it really painful to load shells into the magazine. Painful enough where getting through a box of shells is a sure-fire prominently painfully sore thumb. Benelli Customer Service told me to remove it and hit it with a hammer: it is a well-known issue. Well, I'm not trained in bashing at brand new guns with hammers, so I suggested that the Benelli gunsmiths do the hammering as they have far more experience than I with hammering on new guns. So, the gun went back to Benelli, they apparently beat it into submission, so although still on the stiff side, it is much improved.

The Benelli M2 weighs 6 lbs. On the nose. The M2 trigger, as supplied, breaks at a heavier weight than the entire gun at 6-1/2 pounds. Heavier triggers are less problematic on heavier guns, but the supplied trigger was unacceptable. Benelli Customer Service is quite good. Off went the entire trigger guard to Benelli and it came back at 4-3/4 lbs., a far more reasonable and usable break weight.

The bore of this Benelli M2 as measured by Skeets bore gauge is .620 inch. None of the supplied choke tubes threw acceptable pattern densities past 40 yards, so it was an Improved Modified Trulock Precision Hunter choke that finally did the trick.

So, when asked if a Benelli M2 20 gauge is a "good" gun, the answer is a bit more complicated than a simple yes or no. After you break off the center bead, have Benelli beat on the shell stop with a hammer, have Benelli lighten the ridiculously heavy trigger, toss the factory "Crio" flush tubes in the garbage, kill a lot of paper and end up with a Trulock Improved Modified Precision Hunter extended tube PHCRP20600 (.020 inch constriction) . . .

It is a great gun. Eventually.

Copyright 2015 by Randy Wakeman. All Rights Reserved.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Yep, it's complicated. For instance, the 12 gauge doesn't come with a center bead, and on my 20, it's small enough not to bother me. As far as chokes go, I shoot my birds close, and because I'll only hunt waterfowl with these guns, I'll always shoot steel. I almost always use the CYL tube, very occasionally the IC, as I need all the pattern I can get. Benelli test fired both guns the first time they went back, found one was hard to load and fixed it. So that's nice. That only leaves the trigger issue. Even when it's lighter, given the "take up" or "creep", plus the overtravel, it still feels bad. IMO, that will keep me from ever thinking they're great guns. Good enough as a mud gun, but not great.

A buddy has a Retay Masai Mara on order, we'll see how it stacks up. I think it's about a half pound heavier, and I don't need the push button trigger release. I've only experienced the Benelli click once that I remember, on a pintail drake cupped up and frozen in mid air on a strong south wind, the late afternoon sunlight made for an awesome sight. Shooting that bird would have ruined it.
 
I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges. Shotgun triggers don't need to be in the same class as rifle and pistol triggers, dedicated slug guns being an exception. Nice? Yes, necessary? No.

In any event, M2's are a wonderful gun for most anything. I'd fix it, move on, and have fun shooting.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
RandyWakeman said:
Paddler said:
A buddy has a Retay Masai Mara on order, we'll see how it stacks up.
The MM is softer shooting and . . . has a substantially better trigger. There is no plastic in a MM trigger group, all machined alloy.
Being an inertia gun, I wonder if the softer shooting is because it's heavier? Doesn't matter much to me as I shoot mostly 3/4 oz, 2 3/4" steel, so the recoil isn't objectionable.

Not sure that the trigger body being plastic is the problem. The design is poor, pulling the trigger should not compress the hammer spring further. I'm not a gun designer, but trigger pull should be decoupled from the hammer spring. Here's a video of Remington's 1100 trigger. Note that pulling the trigger only compresses the sear spring, which appears to be quite stout. The sear itself moves up and back, which is proper. This is the factory trigger without modification, it breaks at just a touch over 4# and is crisp. It could easily be made lighter, too. The M2 is a different story.

 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Flyingtargets! said:
RandyWakeman said:
Flyingtargets! said:
Shotgun triggers don't need to be in the same class as rifle and pistol triggers
Why would you say that?
Because it's true.
I agree with Randy. I see no reason why any factory shotgun trigger shouldn't be crisp and not exceed 4# pull. Benelli's spec of 5#-7# is atrocious, and is just an attempt to justify an inherently inferior design. I'd bet a nickel pulling the trigger on a Retay doesn't affect the hammer spring.
 
I'm not saying a crappy one can't be improved on. And you've been a couple good options for doing so, and sounds as if you're going to do so yourself.

But on that particular class of gun ( not knocking it, have several myself), you're getting pretty worked up. I have a montefeltro 20, 24" that a grandson loves. I can shoot 24-25's with it all day at skeet, and he's scaring 20's. Crappy trigger, but trying to compare those triggers to a higher end gun is futile.

They're not going to do it better, and insisting they turn out 4lb crisp triggers is just gonna raise your BP. Still not remotely the same as handguns and rifles. I've several target and comp examples of both, with triggers in the ounces.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Flyingtargets! said:
I'm not saying a crappy one can't be improved on. And you've been a couple good options for doing so, and sounds as if you're going to do so yourself.

But on that particular class of gun ( not knocking it, have several myself), you're getting pretty worked up. I have a montefeltro 20, 24" that a grandson loves. I can shoot 24-25's with it all day at skeet, and he's scaring 20's. Crappy trigger, but trying to compare those triggers to a higher end gun is futile.

They're not going to do it better, and insisting they turn out 4lb crisp triggers is just gonna raise your BP. Still not remotely the same as handguns and rifles. I've several target and comp examples of both, with triggers in the ounces.
At least I now understand the reason they're bad from the factory is the poor design. I just expected more out of Benelli. It's not a low end gun, in fact, it's well respected, and I don't believe the triggers are worthy of the $1400 price point. Maybe it reflects the dumbing down of the shooting public, they just don't know what makes a good trigger.

The pull weight is easy to fix, the reduced power springs from Taran are supposed to yield a 3.5# trigger. I ordered two sets today. As I have them on the way, I took the opportunity to experiment with trimming the hammer spring. It's now ~4.25#, the creep is the same and probably not fixable. I left the trigger spring alone, as it determines the sear engagement and altering it could give you an unsafe trigger. I asked Randy Orr to send me a spare trigger to experiment with but am not expecting him to do so.

I have guns with light triggers also, the lightest is on a Remington 700 at 2 ounces. My Anschutz Exemplar is 9.2 ounces. Making a crisp 4# trigger ain't rocket science.
 
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