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21 - 33 of 33 Posts
Discussion starter · #21 ·
Thank You for all the replies! Like I said, I'm using a Mossberg Shockwave, no buttstock, in my house, at short range, want low recoil because of my 65 year old arthritic hands. Of course if I were outside in a self defense or military situation I would use a full size riot gun with a buttstock loaded with buck shot! I'm not going to try to hold the Shockwave up by my face, that's why I have the red dot laser sight. Kind of like having a Corvette and a Jeep. I wouldn't take the Corvette on a 4 wheel drive trail and I wouldn't drag race a jeep.
 
We’re talking bedroom distances here. Measure the distance from the far side of the bed to the door. Go to a range, pace off the distance, pattern the various loads; birdshot, buck shot in various sizes, even slugs. Probably won’t see much difference at that range, but pick the one that suits you. At least then you are dealing from some specific knowledge.
 
We’re talking bedroom distances here. Measure the distance from the far side of the bed to the door. Go to a range, pace off the distance, pattern the various loads; birdshot, buck shot in various sizes, even slugs. Probably won’t see much difference at that range, but pick the one that suits you. At least then you are dealing from some specific knowledge.
It's not about pattern, it's about stopping power. No compromise. Humans aren't small game birds.
 
I see this topic discussed frequently and in reality there are so many variables to take into account. There are some instances where birdshot would absolutely work and others where it would not. I like to be prepared for as many scenarios as possible which is why I prefer bigger/heavier shot. There are less scenarios where the bigger/heavier shot won't work. If you could guarantee that the person breaking in was 150 pounds or less and wearing shorts, a t-shirt, and flip flops and not on any type of drug then the birdshot will probably be effective. If however, the guy breaking in is 350 pounds, wearing a t-shirt under a denim jacket with a leather vest on, motorcycle leather chaps and heavy duty boots while hyped up on PCP, birdshot would probably be a lot less effective. FBI standard of 12 inches of penetration in ballistics gel is only achieved with #4 buckshot or larger. Some people don't think too much of the FBI standard but it is another data point to consider. I'm not saying that I would only use #4 buckshot or larger myself but the absolute smallest I would consider would be #4 birdshot if I had no other choice. BB or larger would be preferred. Lead shot, not steel. I have loaded up some F buckshot (.22 caliber lead) that I would feel comfortable with in a home defense scenario. But the .44 magnum with 240 grain Hornady XTP is what I currently have on the night stand. To each his own.
 
Dr. Gary Roberts data is pretty definitive and is considered the go-to source for terminal ballistics. TL:DR - you want 12-18 inches of penetration which you will not get from 7.5 birdshot. #4 buck at a minimum, preferably #1 or 00. "The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. "

See pages 16-17: Wound Ballistics 2013 Gary Roberts

About Gary Roberts
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center where he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.
 
At short distances a load of birdshot will just be a mass of lead. Probably act like a slug.
But I would not use it. My HD shotgun is loaded with HeviShot “Dead Coyote”. 64 pellets of HeviShot T shot. Heavier than lead. They say it will roll a coyote at 60 yards. Should work on a bad guy.
 
At short distances a load of birdshot will just be a mass of lead. Probably act like a slug.
But I would not use it. My HD shotgun is loaded with HeviShot “Dead Coyote”. 64 pellets of HeviShot T shot. Heavier than lead. They say it will roll a coyote at 60 yards. Should work on a bad guy.
It will roll a coyote farther than 60 yards. I know a 3.5" Dead Coyote load will dump them at 75 out of a Mossberg Improved cylinder choke.
 
Do not use birdshot. It may work, but the odds aren't in your favor. In twenty seven years as a paramedic including working as a contractor overseas the only on site fatal birdshot wounds I've seen have been contact/near contact self inflicted. Two self inflicted birdshot suicide attempts failed when the person flinched or pushed the gun out while trying to depress the trigger- one removed most of her face (odd since women usually don't do head shots) and the other removed the anterior portion of the lower mandible. Two of the ones I've seen shot with birdshot at across the room distance (small section 8 apartment) would have died without modern medical care, but both were still in the fight/able to move- one took a round to his left arm and one to his left thigh and was still able to get off the couch and to his bedroom to retrieve a pistol but the attacker had already fled (the thigh wound would have eventually gotten him but it didn't require a tourniquet, just dressings and pressure point; this was back before TQs were back in favor). In the other, the woman took a round to the abdomen in a drive by but still ran into the house. She'd been standing on the sidewalk next to the street.

The problems is physics, the pellets are so light that they do not carry the energy to reliably penetrate deep enough. Especially in close quarters you need to end the fight ASAP. I am not an expert and don't claim to be but based on my own first hand experience, knowing and working with multiple docs including trauma surgeons and medical examiners and the work of people like Dr Roberts the absolute smallest I would use or recommend in any shotgun for defensive purposes is #4 buck. I would look into the reduced recoil loads and learn to run the gun as it should be- and that's not from the hip. Bring the gun up in front of you and aim, use a push/pull technique and you will get better results. At across the room distances the shot is not going to spread out much and it's still very easy to miss. A better option may be a brace like the SB Tactical (subject to change depending on how the wind is blowing and the atf's mood apparently). The Crimson Trace Lasersaddle is a better choice of lasers but any laser is better than nothing on this firearm. That said, since you said that you have a Mossberg you could also try the OpSol mini clip and use the short shells (I love the term "hater tots- they are cute little things :ROFLMAO:). Most folks report very good results with them (I've used them in an old model 500 with a handful each of Federal Shorty 00, #4 buck and #8 with no failures but they are not what I keep in the gun or on the sidesaddle; I actually got them to use in a H&R single shot since the recoil is bad and I have a bad shoulder) and Mossberg is actually making a version of the 500/590, designated with an "S" on the end of the model (ex. 590S Shockwave), with a redesigned elevator and bolt slide that allows you to use any combination of shell lengths; I'm not sure if the parts are available for retrofitting at this time and I have no first hand experience with this newer model.

One example of how to aim the Shockwave:

Just out of curiosity, have you considered another firearm? I'm not quite your age and have already been told I have a shoulder replacement in my future; I do not enjoy shooting a lot of 12ga rounds as much as I used to. In fact I don't enjoy shooting pumps and single shots as much either; a 20ga semiauto has become my favorite dove gun (I don't hunt turkey or waterfowl) and I honestly wouldn't feel bad using it with some buckshot. I bought an extension for it (I think it's a Nordic)?, but haven't tried it out yet as 20ga buckshot has been hard to come by. There are a lot of good rifles out there that would be as effective and easier on your body. An example would be my grandfather who switched from his beloved Garand to a tuned Rossi 92 in .357; it was a compromise that his wife could also shoot and it was compact and 50 state legal since he was traveling the country in his camper. Another older neighbor kept an M1 Carbine by his bed until he passed away- he'd carried one in WWII and Korea and kept it loaded with Remington 110gr soft points; he also had a WWII bring back 1911A1. Certainly not criticisms, just alternatives- as the saying goes, getting older ain't for sissies and sometimes we have to make adjustments (I no longer shoot my 45-70 even though I haven't been able to bring myself to sell it yet).


Wow, I'm back to zero posts. :rolleyes:
 
At close range birdshot will punch a 70 caliber hole. It wouldn't be my first choice for home defence but I've killed lots of critters with 4, 6 or 7 shot at short range. Coyote pictured in this video was shot using #6 birdshot at close range.
Entrance hole is visible in the cover photo behind the front leg.

 
Couple anecdotal stories. Years ago we were bird hunting and my uncle yelled at me to get ready. A coyote emerged from the brush at around 15 yards. I hit him broadside 3 times with #8 quail loads and didn't even slow him down. A month or so later, a local farmer trapped him.......said his entire right side hide was full of bird shot.....life had probably been miserable for him.......but it didn't penetrate.....didn't kill him.

A few years before that......about 6th grade......kid in my class and his brother found their dad's 410. They were fooling around and big brother shot little brother in the head at pretty close range. It was a closed casket funeral.

My take? At close range of inside 10 feet, you hit somebody in the head with any kind of load coming out of a 12 gauge tube and chunks of his head are going to go flying. But as that distance increases, the effectiveness decreases. What was a mass of pellets is now a spread of pellets. What might have penetrated clothing doesn't.

I know a guy whose experience and judgement I respect......who claims to have a loaded shotgun in every room in his house......and they are loaded with #4 upland game loads.

I've shot several varmints......skunks and such......at a range of about 10 to 12 yard with #4 shot.......and it rolls them and renders them graveyard dead. That is some pretty tough hide...similar to clothing a human would be wearing........and it penetrates that and kills them. But compared to a human, vital area presents a smaller target and needed denser shot pattern to hit it.

So having said all that, I don't have close neighbors nor family to worry about, so for me my min would be #4 buck. That has killed a lot of coyotes and paper writing services online writemypapers4me.net/essay-writing-service out to 30 yards or so and would do what a load of 7 1/2's would do and keep doing in from one end of the house to the other.

What I think is probably optimal is the same shell loaded with 7 1/2 birdshot, except replace the 7 1/2 low recoil payload with #0 buckshot. 1 oz payload of #0 buck is about 9 pellets cooking along at around 1300 fps. You would not want to be standing in front of that when it goes off.
I completely agree with you that the effectiveness decreases as the distance increases. I would also like to add my observations, for example, that small pellets give a higher probability of hitting the game, but their velocity drops faster than that of coarse pellets. On the other hand, coarse pellets retain their energy longer, but because of the smaller number of pellets, their shot density drops faster than that of small pellets, but that's just my guess.
 
I picked up a Mossberg Shockwave 12 gauge for home defense. Changed out the trigger group with a military grade metal one from Brownell's along with a metal safety and put in a Hi-Viz non- binding shell follower. I'm going to shoot it from the hip as intended with the mares leg grip so I installed a Monstrum Picatinny Rail with a bult on red laser sight. Mounts on top of the receiver. Put a low mount tactical flash light on the rail. I have arthritis in my hands so I plan to use Winchester Extra Lite 7 1/2 shot shells for in the house. Distances of 3 to 5 yards max. I'm not trying to shoot deer at 50 yards so I don't think I need 00 buck. I do have some #4 buck for road trips. From what I read #7 1/2 shot at close range can do a lot of damage. Any one have any experience using this load for self defense?
Don't do it. Use buckshot.
 
We’re talking bedroom distances here. Measure the distance from the far side of the bed to the door. Go to a range, pace off the distance, pattern the various loads; birdshot, buck shot in various sizes, even slugs. Probably won’t see much difference at that range, but pick the one that suits you. At least then you are dealing from some specific knowledge.
Also check out penetration through several layers of thick clothing.
 
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