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41 - 58 of 58 Posts
..... I also believe the overwhelming majority of flinching has nothing at all to do with recoil. It's mostly due to target panic where your brain is sending conflicting shoot and don't shoot messages. It afflicts older and more experienced shooters more because they have the experience to subconsciously recognize then the sight picture is not right at the break point and a growing number of physical and mental limitations that contribute to not being on target.
I've heard that theory before, but personally, I don't buy it. Reason being is that as soon as I switched to a release trigger, my flinching/freezing stopped immediately. Perhaps the release trigger improved my eyesight and stopped my brain from sending conflicting "shoot or don't shoot" messages to my trigger finger. ;)
I actually think you proved his point for him. He didn't say your eyesight causes the problem, it's your perception of having the right lead.

With a pull trigger, you can start to shoot, apply a small amount of pressure to the trigger, and then let off because you feel something isn't right. (That's the flinch!)

You can't do that with a release trigger, as soon as you think it's time to shoot, and ease up even the slightest on the trigger...the gun is going to fire.....that's why the release trigger works! (Flinch fixed!)

Remember back in school when your teacher would tell you to stick with your first answer, it is almost always right? Same thing with target panic....if you thought it was time to shoot, it mist likely was. You conscience mind tries to take over, and prevent you from shooting....but no worries, with a release trigger, your gun already went off!!
 
With a pull trigger, you can start to shoot, apply a small amount of pressure to the trigger, and then let off because you feel something isn't right.
THIS.

Gaming the trigger and incorrect sight picture, in my opinion, account for an OVERWHELMING majority of flinches, and likely almost all of them that cannot be solved by going to lighter shells (removing the recoil factor). I always kinda viewed it as a one or the other, but your view of one leading to the other makes sense as well.

Slap the trigger and a VAST majority of these problems will disappear, unfortunately many shooters lack the discipline to convert from a squeezer to a slapper. Additionally, as a slapper most issues with trigger quality COMPLETELY disappear (weight, creep, grittiness, overtravel, ect), however you do become more sensitive to trigger design and shape (short blades that your finger hangs off of, ones with sharp edges, ect chew up your finger). The other thing to frame your frame your final statement in a slightly different light, and meld it with mine, is that a release trigger is simply slapping the trigger but backwards, you really can't game a release trigger, you just fling your finger forward and it goes bang.

The fact that people who swear they can't shoot anything but a release for clay targets, but then have no problem with a pull trigger in ANY other situation involving firearms bears this out and removes physical, physiological, or psychological issues. Yes, there are people who genuinely can't shoot release triggers for one of those reasons, but I suspect that number is EXCEEDINGLY small.
 
That's true... for any one particular shot. Sometimes, perhaps even MOST of the time, these differences produced by a heavier payload will be positive. However, the effects of recoil are cumulative. Therefore, sometimes the shooter's anticipation of the recoil will produce a negative reaction which will outweigh the positive effects of the slightly greater payload.

If a shooter begins flinching or jerking on the trigger, it's impossible to shoot a heavy enough load to compensate for the misalignment error cause by the untimely jerking or freezing on the trigger.

Some shooters will even be unable to pull the trigger when they want to once this recoil anticipation becomes a problem. I'm a prime example of that. That's why I switched to a RELEASE trigger 20 years ago. I still have a problem shooting a lot of heavy loads, but at least I can shoot moderate loads without my subconscious mind screwing up my shooting too badly in anticipation of the recoil.
See the bird, shoot the bird. Don't think!
This reminds me of the person that bought a $350.00 driver because the salesmen convinced him it would solve all his problems on the tee.
That poor fool is probably still looking for his ball in the woods again.
That money would have been better spent learning how to swing a club. Sounds a bit like swinging a gun barrel and finding that lead.
Mike
PS: Maybe a recoil shy shooter could buy a .410 and stand closer to the target? It's just a thought.
 
. I just can’t believe that 1 ounce of 9’s can’t provide full pattern density at skeet ranges.
I guess you can believe what you would like... But there is evidence to show that you CAN have too few of pellets at skeet ranges even with 9/8oz... And it's easier than you think.

I've used numbers from programs that tell you percentages based on pattern density and target presentation, along with my own observations, and I "Like" breaks that are in the .8-.9 (pellets/ square inch) density.

It might sound complicated, but all I do is just measure the size of my pattern and find out how many pellets are in that load.

Anyway, here's an example... My reloads are 1oz, usually I have 9s and I use a skeet choke which = 30" patterns. 585pellets/707sqin = .83 and confident breaks.

If I run out of 9s and use 8s, 410/707=.58 and I'm not happy with breaks.

A 32" pattern from 1oz of 9s will give .7

Anything between .7-1.0 is acceptable (to me)
Over 1.0+ is over choked (to me)

This is how I've solved it... It's simple, gives clear results and I now don't need to think about it... No more temptation to buy a magic choke... Just numbers that give me confidence.


Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 
Shotgun Ballistics for Window calculates the effective pattern with 1 1/8 oz as 24".

I guess you can believe what you would like... But there is evidence to show that you CAN have too few of pellets at skeet ranges even with 9/8oz... And it's easier than you think.

I've used numbers from programs that tell you percentages based on pattern density and target presentation, along with my own observations, and I "Like" breaks that are in the .8-.9 (pellets/ square inch) density.

It might sound complicated, but all I do is just measure the size of my pattern and find out how many pellets are in that load.

Anyway, here's an example... My reloads are 1oz, usually I have 9s and I use a skeet choke which = 30" patterns. 585pellets/707sqin = .83 and confident breaks.

If I run out of 9s and use 8s, 410/707=.58 and I'm not happy with breaks.

A 32" pattern from 1oz of 9s will give .7

Anything between .7-1.0 is acceptable (to me)
Over 1.0+ is over choked (to me)

This is how I've solved it... It's simple, gives clear results and I now don't need to think about it... No more temptation to buy a magic choke... Just numbers that give me confidence.


Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 
I actually think you proved his point for him. He didn't say your eyesight causes the problem, it's your perception of having the right lead.

With a pull trigger, you can start to shoot, apply a small amount of pressure to the trigger, and then let off because you feel something isn't right.

You can't do that with a release trigger, as soon as you think it's time to shoot, and ease up even the slightest on the trigger...the gun is going to fire.....that's why the release trigger works!

Remember back in school when your teacher would tell you to stick with your first answer, it is almost always right? Same thing with target panic....if you thought it was time to shoot, it mist likely was. You conscience mind tries to take over, and prevent you from shooting....but no worries, with a release trigger, your gun already went off!!
Interesting concept. However, your description of how the release trigger works is not exactly on target. There's just as much "forgiveness" or whatever you want to call it in a release trigger as there is in a pull trigger.

For example, my Browning 525 sets the triggers at 64 ounces (top barrel) and 68 ounces (bottom barrel). Both of them "release" at 20 ounces. This is a difference of 44 to 48 ounces between the set weight and the release weight.

On my Browning XT, the differences in the set weight and the release weight are 44 ounces on the top barrel and a whopping 58 ounces on the bottom barrel. This means that I could ease my hold on the trigger by about 3 pounds before the gun goes off.

If a target shooter has his pull triggers set at say 3.5 pounds, that's a difference of 56 ounces between "no pressure" and "shooting pressure" which is not much difference at all from what my release triggers are set at.

So, then the question becomes, "Can a shooter tell the difference between 56 ounces of trigger pressure when pulling the trigger, but not when he's releasing the trigger"? Hmmm, I wouldn't think so. Seems to me that 56 ounces of pressure is the same whether it's 56 ounces of MORE pull or 56 ounces of LESS pull.
 
Isn't that a flinch?
I would think so. Many times, before I switched to a release trigger, I would pull the trigger enough that I thought sure the gun would fire, but it didn't. I even began to question whether my gun was working properly or not.

Turns out that the gun was working exactly as it was supposed to. The problem was with the shooter.
 
Interesting concept. However, your description of how the release trigger works is not exactly on target. There's just as much "forgiveness" or whatever you want to call it in a release trigger as there is in a pull trigger.

For example, my Browning 525 sets the triggers at 64 ounces (top barrel) and 68 ounces (bottom barrel). Both of them "release" at 20 ounces. This is a difference of 44 to 48 ounces between the set weight and the release weight.

On my Browning XT, the differences in the set weight and the release weight are 44 ounces on the top barrel and a whopping 58 ounces on the bottom barrel. This means that I could ease my hold on the trigger by about 3 pounds before the gun goes off.
Congratualtions on being the first person I have ever met who thinks they could call for a bird, start to release the trigger, and the gun not go off!!

You've just defeated the entire purpose of a release trigger!

As far as there being just as much forgiveness in a release trigger as a pull trigger, I don't buy that for one second. It would defeat the purpose of even having a release trigger!
 
Congratualtions on being the first person I have ever met who thinks they could call for a bird, start to release the trigger, and the gun not go off!!

You've just defeated the entire purpose of a release trigger!

As far as there being just as much forgiveness in a release trigger as a pull trigger, I don't buy that for one second. It would defeat the purpose of even having a release trigger!
I didn't say that's the way I do it. I said that it could be done that way.

Here's your quote:
"With a pull trigger, you can start to shoot, apply a small amount of pressure to the trigger, and then let off because you feel something isn't right.

You can't do that with a release trigger...
"

My response was (in so many words) that, in fact, it CAN be done. I didn't say that I did it that way.
 
I didn't say that's the way I do it. I said that it could be done that way.

Here's your quote:
"With a pull trigger, you can start to shoot, apply a small amount of pressure to the trigger, and then let off because you feel something isn't right.

You can't do that with a release trigger...
"

My response was (in so many words) that, in fact, it CAN be done. I didn't say that I did it that way.
OK, let me know when you find someone who can do it. I really don't believe it could be done. In theory, maybe, but in practice, doubt it. If so, you'd see just as much flinching with a release trigger as you do with pull triggers, and that's just not the case.
 
OK, let me know when you find someone who can do it. I really don't believe it could be done. In theory, maybe, but in practice, doubt it. If so, you'd see just as much flinching with a release trigger as you do with pull triggers, and that's just not the case.
I CAN do it. It's not any more difficult than "squeezing" the trigger. I just choose not to do so on about 99% of the shots. I will do it occasionally on a long, slow incomer.

If you've got a gun with a release trigger, you can try it yourself. However, I would agree with you that doing that very much COULD lead to flinching with the release trigger.
 
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