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So, if I understand all of this, SAAMI MAP is +/- 7.5% and is intended to give manufacturers a minimum standard to build to. Some manufacturers may build to MAP and others may build to 3x MAP which presumably is the difference between a $700 O/U and a $4,000 O/U.
If you reload, you are the manufacturer. Reloading data has nothing to do with making a shotgun.
 
Discussion starter · #64 ·
Isn't today the start of Hun season in ND?.......just sayin'. 🤝
Yeah it is, hun and sharpies, but it's also 80 degrees and that's too hot for the dogs, except for early in the morning. Monday looks a lot better. We got some nice cool mornings for grouse when I was in Nebraska 10 days ago.
 
Proofing is a real funny one.
2 guns made in the same factory, get sent to different proof lines.
one gets proofed to accept 1050bar ammunition. This is the most expensive proof. This is tested and is inspected for x y z

the other gets proofed for 740bar ammunition. This is the standard and is cheaper. This is only inspected for y z.
 
I’m an engineer. SAMMI is a voluntary institution for the ammunition manufacturers. It sets the standards for ammunition not fire arms. Firearm designers engineer firearms to exceed ammunition standards. The firearm engineers design for safety, service life, cost, and esthetics. Low cost fire arms tend to be made for safety and a reasonable service life. High cost firearms are made for high service life and esthetics. A cheap single barrel shotgun is not made to shoot 20 thousand rounds a year for 10 years. The high priced target guns are and in most cases made to look pretty beyond their function. Any shotgun in good mechanical condition made in the last 100 years will be able to handle MAP with a large safety factor involved. The difference between 9000psi and 11000psi is nothing as far as wear on a shotgun.
 
What about the guys that swap nitro card/fiber and plastic cup/wad component data? Or that still isn't enough to reach anything substantial?
In my admittedly limited experience (having to date only had two loads pressure/velocity tested with nitro cards and felt/cork/fiber wads) the pressure/velocity for such 'natural' wad columns drops a good bit vs. a one piece plastic wad when the powder charge is held constant between them. This for 28 Gauge.
 
In my admittedly limited experience (having to date only had two loads pressure/velocity tested with nitro cards and felt/cork/fiber wads) the pressure/velocity for such 'natural' wad columns drops a good bit vs. a one piece plastic wad when the powder charge is held constant between them. This for 28 Gauge.
Mind sharing the results? Link? I don't think I can do PMs yet.
 
Here's one example set matching 15.15 grains of N340 in a 'natural' wad column configuration to both 15.0 grains and 13.3 grains of N340 with two different one piece plastic wads. As to pressure the 15.15 grain natural wad column load most closely resembles the plastic wad loads with 13.3 grains. But with nearly 14% more powder.

Image

Image
 
Before I registered I read somewhere someone managed to get ridiculously high pressures with fiber, well beyond sammi.

If I find the post again I'll link it.
Yes it is possible. I tend to use powders in either very sensible powdercharge or where the powder is pushing the maximum weight published payload.
here is the reason. Powder is energy, more powder is more energy.
in the first case of normal sensible powder charge the powder probably isnt burning clean and efficient. So there is some potential energy sitting around not being accessed by the system.
when this system is changed aka wad change, primer change, hull capacity change that powder sitting around not normaly converted into gas is and can give different pressures. Energy per grain increases.

with the latter the shell with relative normal or smaller powder charges with the heavyest payload, the powder is being burned cleaner 2 fold because the restricted volume to expand into (the larger shot charge takes up more room) and the larger shot sharge weighes more so needs more energy to get it started moving. That very slight difference means that the powder is burning clean or cleaner than the previous.
this load may change less, as the powder is limited and what is there is cleaner. There is no energy sitting around.

both shell pressures change, with change in wad.
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
Before I registered I read somewhere someone managed to get ridiculously high pressures with fiber, well beyond sammi.

If I find the post again I'll link it.
Loads using card and fiber wads do produce less chamber pressure than one piece plastic wads or plastic gas seals with all other components being the same. That doesn't mean that card and fiber wads are incapable of holding back higher pressures well in excess of SAAMI MAP. The proof loads used before the plastic wad was developed, used card and fiber wads. Card and fiber wads are not the antiques many believe they are, they are very capable of producing excellent ballistics.

Shotshells, have not really advanced all that much since smokeless powder replaced black powder. Plastic wads are more convenient than card and fiber wads, but card and fiber wads are very capable of producing excellent ballistics and patterns. Find some of the old wax edge wads that Alcan made and load them up. You will be pleasantly surprised at their performance.
 
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Loads using card and fiber wads do produce less chamber pressure than one piece plastic wads or plastic gas seals with all other components being the same. That doesn't mean that card and fiber wads are incapable of holding back higher pressures well in excess of SAAMI MAP. The proof loads used before the plastic wad was developed, used card and fiber wads. Card and fiber wads are not the antiques many believe they are, they are very capable of producing excellent ballistics.

Shotshells, have not really advanced all that much since smokeless powder replaced black powder. Plastic wads are more convenient than card and fiber wads, but card and fiber wads are very capable of producing excellent ballistics and patterns. Find some of the old wax edge wads that Alcan made and load them up. You will be pleasantly surprised at their performance.
There is a lot of modern ammo loaded without 1 piece plastic wads today.
 
Here's one example set matching 15.15 grains of N340 in a 'natural' wad column configuration to both 15.0 grains and 13.3 grains of N340 with two different one piece plastic wads. As to pressure the 15.15 grain natural wad column load most closely resembles the plastic wad loads with 13.3 grains. But with nearly 14% more powder.

View attachment 123068
View attachment 123069
What did you use to seat the wads and measure the wad pressure?
 
What did you use to seat the wads and measure the wad pressure?
For the natural wad column, a 600 Jr. and 48-50 Lbs. pressure as indicated by that press.

Near zero pressure for the 28S1 and ~30 PSI for the CB5034 one piece plastic wads.
 
Loads using card and fiber wads do produce less chamber pressure than one piece plastic wads or plastic gas seals with all other components being the same. That doesn't mean that card and fiber wads are incapable of holding back higher pressures well in excess of SAAMI MAP. The proof loads used before the plastic wad was developed, used card and fiber wads. Card and fiber wads are not the antiques many believe they are, they are very capable of producing excellent ballistics.

Shotshells, have not really advanced all that much since smokeless powder replaced black powder. Plastic wads are more convenient than card and fiber wads, but card and fiber wads are very capable of producing excellent ballistics and patterns. Find some of the old wax edge wads that Alcan made and load them up. You will be pleasantly surprised at their performance.
Been using fiber and card since the 70s. I've never reloaded with plastic. Sadly the waxed alcans are rare.

All these claims of excessive sammi achievements with fiber and cardboard I highly doubt were never loaded with the same charge as plastic wad data. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe someone made 32,492 psi with 17 grains of e3 with fiber wads and an excessively deep crimp.

Maybe if you find a plunger, triple the fiber wads,then squeeze it together in a vise, you might double the chamber pressures on powder burn, but I even doubt that.

I've substituted every plastic 1 piece recipe with fiber and card, maybe a couple extra for stack height to make the crimp pretty for the inside of my pockets, and I walk back every time with bag limits, small and large game. Same gun since the 70s.

The only guys that need to worry are the damascus owners

11.5? I'd shoot it.
12.5? I'd shoot it.
13, yes, 14, yes, 15, 16..., now were getting sketchy, really no more gain, besides verifying metallurgy and newtons law on the shoulder.


All these horror stories , I believe, have been from mixing powders and absolutely ridiculous charge weights.

48 grains of red dot or clay dot, instead of steel or blue dot.

Mixing wads will not magically make double and unsafe pressures. Show me.
 
This thread seemingly has absolutely nothing at all to do with factually understanding SAAMI MAP, and it seemingly has everything to do with a mere personal opinion that SAAMI MAP should be set well higher than it is at present.

Given that none of us factually know the point at which the repeatedly routine firing of shotshells which are a couple to several thousands of PSI above present SAAMI MAP standards might do, and the routine practice therefore may be highly unsafe, I find it amazing that his thread has not been scrutinized.
 
Discussion starter · #80 · (Edited)
This thread seemingly has absolutely nothing at all to do with factually understanding SAAMI MAP, and it seemingly has everything to do with a mere personal opinion that SAAMI MAP should be set well higher than it is at present.

Given that none of us factually know the point at which the repeatedly routine firing of shotshells which are a couple to several thousands of PSI above present SAAMI MAP standards might do, and the routine practice therefore may be highly unsafe, I find it amazing that his thread has not been scrutinized.
The thread has taken a turn off subject, and that shouldn't be news or a surprise to anyone. The original thought and intent of the thread was to stop people from shying away from loads at or approaching SAAMI MAP because they are somehow dangerous and/or continuing the lie about SAAMI MAP being a cliff to fall off of.........Period.

I should have known better than to start this thread and I regretted it almost immediately. The ignorance for the purpose of SAAMI MAP runs deep and the day when those fairy tale telling folks actually understand it doesn't seem like it will be any day too soon.
 
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