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neophyte

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
For those who lust for that 200 yd. capable shotgun slug that throws a bullet at 2000fps + understand that there are those safety minded individuals who throw these facts in your face. Consider, is that segment of the industry living on borrowed time ?

Numerous hunters have told me that they are very careful and always kill the animal on the first shot and that the animal always dies instantly. All the research I have done, including much of it from hunting sources, indicates that such statements are the exception and not the rule. Hunters miss and hunters wound, and some hunters are so engrossed in their intent on killing that they fail to remember or realize where they are or the deadly power that is in their control.

As an example, in Medina County, Ohio, on 27 November 2000, a woman was nearly shot in her own bathroom while putting on her make-up. The bullet from a shotgun missed her head by only four inches. The hunter told investigators that he took aim at a large buck as it bounded across a field, firing several rounds as the deer ran. Unfortunately this woman's home was behind the deer, and one of the rounds smashed through her bathroom window and nearly killed her. The two hunters involved in this case were hunting illegally on the property, and ran away when they realized what they had done. They were arrested later.

In another incident on 24 November 2000 in Niagara County, New York, Sheriff's deputies arrested a deer hunter and accused him of shooting at a house along a road. The arrest came after the hunter, aiming his 12 gauge shotgun at a deer that was moving across a field, fired and and hit the home, police said. The slug went through the north wall of the house into a family computer room, damaging a chair and lodging itself in a second wall that separates the computer room from a hallway.

In still another case which took place on 21 November 2003 in Albany County, New York, a hunter was charged with reckless endangerment after a shot he fired missed its mark and hit a Thruway driver. On that Tuesday morning, a shotgun slug smashed the driver's side window of the sedan and lodged in the back seat. The driver was grazed either by the bullet or smashed glass. He was treated and released from Albany Medical Center Hospital. State police said the hunter was hunting on his own property about 10 AM when he fired--parallel to the highway--at a deer, striking it but not killing it. As the deer continued to run, Payne fired again, this time toward the highway. He missed and hit the driver of the vehicle which was traveling at about 65 MPH.
 
Neo,

You bring up some interesting points. The 200 yard slug gun is already here and yes it can be a dangerous thing (in the wrong hands).

Saboted slugs and rifled barrels have brought distance to slugging that was only a dream not so many years back. When I first started hunting with a slug gun, fosters and brenneke slugs were all there were. A 75 yard shot was a long shot in those days.

Will the DNR's eventually crack down on the advancements in slugging and in-line muzzleloaders? Who knows? The cows already out of the barn (as a matter of fact, Indiana is allowing rifles that shoot pistol ammo from .357 all the way up to .500 S&W).

People need to realize the power they have in their hands with today's ammo and slug guns. It all boils down to practice and being a responsible hunter. Just because you can shoot 200 yards doesn't mean it's a always a good idea.

If we don't police ourselves, we may find ourselves finding that bowhunting only is the rule and not the exception.

Jim
 
I wish the edit function was available:

Quote from previous post:

If we don't police ourselves, we may find ourselves finding that bowhunting only is the rule and not the exception.

What I meant to say:

If we don't police ourselves, we may find that bowhunting only is the rule and not the exception.

Jim
 
The two states mentioned have hundreds of thousands of deer hunters. Out of the three cases two were illegal and nobody got hit or mamed or killed. The odds of getting hit by lighting is probly greater. There are a few bad hunters just like bad drivers, are they going to take away every bodies car. I think we all tend to be to politicly correct!
 
eye shot said:
The two states mentioned have hundreds of thousands of deer hunters. Out of the three cases two were illegal and nobody got hit or mamed or killed. The odds of getting hit by lighting is probly greater. There are a few bad hunters just like bad drivers, are they going to take away every bodies car. I think we all tend to be to politicly correct!
Very well put, eye shot. How many times do we hear about someone almost getting hit by a drunk driver? Rarely to never. Guns and hunting are always a hotbutton issue in the media, and they will run stories like the ones mentioned by neophyte all day long. Those few who are careless, irresponsible, and foolish give all of us hunters and shooters a big fat black eye. But the facts are that hunting is an extremely safe sport. Thanks for pointing that out eye shot![/u][/i]
 
Last deer season, I had to take several reports involving damaged property from slob hunters. A 200 yard slug gun would not have affected the outcome in any of the cases.

Case 1. A slob hunter violated the ohio law requiring the shotgun be plugged to 3 shots. Witnesses told me they heard 6-7 shots. The result is a barn hit twice and a leaded glass front door broken on a house.

Case 2. Slobs from the city, waiting until the last moment to sight in their .44 or.45 handguns, did not have a safe backstop and were slinging too much lead downrange. The result was they missed the backstop, penetrated a steel shed, the a plastic dog house hitting the poor hound inside. The dog was hit in the spine, and had to be euthenized.

Case 3. Yet another perforated barn.

Because of these slobs, do you think that the hunting area is going to increase?
 
neophyte said:
For those who lust for that 200 yd. capable shotgun slug that throws a bullet at 2000fps + understand that there are those safety minded individuals who throw these facts in your face.
Right back atcha.

I know in your mind, I'm one of the lustful. Slobs will be slobs. Guns are dangerous if not properly used? Who'da thunk... :roll:

So Neo, do guns or people with guns kill?

Is 200 yards the magic cut off? What about 199? And why just "slugs"? I've seen you state several times prior that if one wants that kind of yardage, GET A RIFLE!!

So, a 350 grain bullet launched accurately at 2000 fps from a rifle is ok (ML, which are legal as during our "firearms" season, or even rifles firing pistol cartridges, as pointed out about IN), but if the same exact projectile comes from a shotgun, the launcher needs saved from himself, since according to you they must not be "safety minded"?

If one were to go looking, how hard to you think it would be to come up with 3 such stories, at any range, with any weapon?
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Well ,don't take things so personally.

I have already stated that the use of a shotgun at those ranges is left to those who are exceptionally well equipped and equally adept in marksmanship. I will also state that having exposure to literally several thousand rifled shotgun users over the last 5 years about 98% are "accuracy legends in their own minds".

Neither they nor the equipment they use have a "gnats *** chance" of a clean kill at that range. Some can...but those are very few. Too many variables compounded by the use of a shotgun create a situation that few are willing to accept.
Can a Tar-hunt with an excellent shooter do it ? He has a much better chance . But that same shooter with a rifle is guaranteed venison when he places his shot. He has learned the foibles of marksmship and equipment much earlier and can deal with them. Most can not, nor never will !

As for the slobs, they will always be there. But it is like giving a kid a go-cart that has a 200mph speedometer on it. Guess what that kid is going to on the sidestreet ? I think you know.
 
I'm guessing neophyte is in full support of........

{V* "Common Sense" Gun Laws {V*

....and quite possibly still has a Kerry/Edwards '04 bumper sticker on his truck. :lol:

Good discussion point, but perhaps you have the wrong audience. It is always good to have the debate, but if neophyte's argument could be seen as able to hold water, then legislation will develop to limit the parameters of slug guns and ammunition. However, I do not believe that the threat of this happening should discourage a free and capitalist market from researching, developing, and marketing balistically advanced ammunition. Laws prevent the hunter from using rifles in some territory, yet that same rifle ammunition can be used in a handgun in most of those same territories. Dumb, huh? Hunter's that don't want to use high powered rifle ammunition in a handgun choose slugs, but want their efficiency and effective killing range increased. Who blames them? It may come to be that slug technology surpasses the spirit of the legislation that limited us to it in the first place. If and when this happens, you'll see a new niche market emerge to counter that legislation as well, and so on and so on.
 
when i was a kid, i watched someone shoot a bird with a bb gun. the bb went straight through the bird and into our neighbor's house. i didnt even shoot my gun, but i still lost it for a few weeks. fast, powerful, deadly accurate = fuel to the "limitation on firearms" fire. you all know we are constantly under pressure and any "accidents" will normally be blamed on factors outside of the person pulling the trigger ie:fast and powerful new slugs. bb guns, shotguns, or rifles someone had to pull the trigger. its unfortunate because those who normally use high end slugs and slug guns know what they are capable of and just how to use them.

so in reference to the original post. fast slugs may have limited time (lets hope not). but, the fact of the matter is, it wouldnt matter if a guy shot someones house with a sst or old winchester super x, he was jacked up to begin with. in the future if he did it with a sst, it will prob be the slugs fault. if he did it with an old superx the news paper article would have posed the question "what if it had been an sst?" we are constantly fighting an uphill battle and our only support, also as said before, is to police ourselves. real accidents happen, but when they happen in the shooting world there is more pressure because of the major misunderstanding by critics of what we do.
 
I know that this may sound like doubletalk, but there are reasons there are shotgun only states such as Ohio. The idea was to limit projectile range.

In Ohio, there are very very few places that you can point in and direction, and not have a structure within two miles.

The reason I sometimes use high velocity slugs is so that range estimation is less critical, and why (I believe) most others do too. A 200 yard point blank would be dandy when I'm hunting cornfields, but not a consideration in my woods where there aren't too many places I can see 40 yards.

As the effective range between shotguns and rifles blurs, I am sure that we will see eventual restrictions.

So far, all of the cited instances of injury or damage involved violating hunter safety rules such as being aware of what is behind your target...and not how far a particular projectile ca reach out.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
I can appreciate both sides of the argument. But here is my challenge and I am wondering how many people will be successful. This is with a scoped rifled slug gun. (Conventional in configuration. Not a TAR-HUNT, A-BOLT ETC.)
Hit a 3" paster at 50 yds. A 5" paper plate at 100
and a 10" pie plate out at 200. These all must be fired in actual hunting positions (no conc.benches and target rests). But here is the twist. I will call out the targets for 15 shots and expect you to hit them 3 out of 5 times regardless of the range. I have the option however of switching back and forth the target location between EACH shot. Try it. It is revealing.
Time limit 30 minutes.No adjusting of scope in between shots.

I can still clean a target at 400 meters with a rifle. However I have NEVER been able to do this test with an average rifled slug gun.
Remember somebody out there will claim an average hunter using one of the super slug rounds is accurate out to 300 yds in the future. Yea. right ! No thanks. That is inviting failure.
 
neophyte said:
Your first two guesses are incorrect and you are making some rather large assumptions on my attitude of the subject. So be it. I have no problem with that.
No harm meant, just some good-natured ribbing with a side order of sarcasm. Glad you don't take offense!

Your target calling scenario is interesting and would definitely be a challenge. However, I'm not hearing of hardly anyone out there proclaiming that they have a 200 yd 12 ga tack driver, not even guys with a Tar Hunt. Most of what I read on here is guys looking to be consistant at 100-125 yds with 150 yds being the maximum. Physics and the willingness to withstand recoil will be the limiting factors in slug range, and at some point you will reach a point of deminishing returns. Please correct me if I'm overlooking these guys claiming to be crack shots at 200yds.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Speed and range without accuracy is a fools errand. You are absolutely right. I have no problems with your statement at all. My goal has always been accuracy at 125yds out of a rifled slug gun. Others expect 200yds and beyond.
It is just that you get too many guys who actually ask to shift the point of impact 1/4" at 100 yds after his first shot with their new rifled slug gun that makes me blanch. And you know what ? He actually expects everything that the mfg tells him about accuracy/range of the superslug to be within his abilities. Sigh ! Don't laugh. It happens more often than I care to mention.
 
Neo,

Great topic! It fosters debate which is what these sites are for.

I agree with most of the points being made. Most people can't hit the broadside of a barn @ 200 yards. They lack the skill, equipment and financial commitment that is required to do this on a consistent basis.

Most of the guys I hunt with don't even think about 200 yards. If they can keep a 3-4 inch group @ 100 yards they are very happy (myself included).

Unfortunately there are people who think just because a slug has the ballistics to shoot beyond 150 yards they should just sling it out there. The ammo companies are somewhat @ fault for this because of the advertising they use. The ads makes it seem so simple. Just load and shoot and you too can shoot 3" groups @ 200 yards with your pump shotgun. Yeah right, and pigs can fly out of my butt.

The average shot at a deer is 75 yards (last data I read). Some would argue the 200 yard load isn't needed. I disagree. Like Raz said, with these slugs range estimation is less critical and that results in fewer wounded and unrecovered deer.

I hope the manufacturers continue to push the envelope, I just wish the cost of ammo would come back down a bit so I could afford to shoot a bit more. Either that or that new rifle law in Indiana is looking more and more appealing to me. Good bye slugger, Hello Rifle?

Jim
 
What a guy really needs to do is take a walking target shoot ,like they do in bow shoots, where you walk in the woods and shoot at a target at different distance from where you first see the target, more like hunting. After seeing the target scores everyone would re think there range capabilities. Rich :oops: :oops: :shock: :lol:
 
All this talk about high tech slugging makes me wonder what Remington has in store for next year.

Federal, Winchester, Lightfield and Hastings brought out new stuff this year and Remington was conspicuously quiet.

In this month's issue of Gunhunter magazine, Dave Henderson's article about slugging talks about a 20 gauge load and gun that one of the large manufacturers is working on. I will go out on a limb and say it's Remington.

Wonder what it will be....

A bolt gun with a polymer tipped slug? Or maybe a full bore 20 gauge slug with a snap on gas seal like Winchester's rackmaster with a pointy nose like a power belt muzzeloading bullet? No sabot, no sabot separation problems. Is that even possible?

Who knows? Slugging is just getting started, I know that.

Jim
 
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