[cbxchris]

Had a small amount of time today to chrono some preliminary loads with promo in 20 ga. I was VERY pleased with what I saw in deviations in the loads. Very seldom was it over 1%. The promo shot EXTREMELY clean. Probably one of the cleanest powders I have seen. All data was gathered using remington STS hulls and PMC primers. In 3/4 oz loads I used WW new style wads. All 7/8 oz loads used claybuster wads. If you have loaded 3/4 oz in 20ga you will soon find you need the winchester wad.
ALL loads use promo:
12.0 grs 3/4 oz 1199.9 fps
12.5 grs 3/4oz 1217.7 fps
13.0 grs 3/4oz 1248.1 fps
13.5 grs 3/4oz 1282.2 fps
14.0 grs 3/4os 1312.2 fps

13.0 grs 7/8oz 1188.8 fps
13.5 grs 7/8oz 1226.2 fps
14.0 grs 7/8oz 1246.6 fps

As you can see these were very suprising to say the least. I can promise you this will be my new 20 ga loads. I can see absolutely no reason to keep a different powder for 20ga especially when promo is the cheapest powder on the market. I do wish there was some more current data from a powder mafg on this but I compared then to my present 3/4 oz reloads in recoil. These are excellent. You can really tell it though when you`re shooting those 3/4 oz 1300fps+ loads. I bet they would be great at trap or SC`s and especially a good hunting shell. Remember these were at times only three shells fired per loading solution. Really a good 10 shot string should be fired for a final conclusion. I have no way to check pressure but I am a old rifle bench rest shooter....so I know what pressure looks like. I saw no signs of pressure. But I can`t guarantee that and this is shotguns. But I see where these loads will work. The deviations were to small to give much different results with more testing. Hope everyone likes the info...my turn to share. I make no guarantees to this info and shoot them at your own risk!!! Chris

 

[claysmoker]

Neat! Thanks cbxchris. It will be interesting to see if Case has similar performance. I'll bet those high velocity 7/8 oz loads are way up there on pressure. I hope no one tries them in a tubeset or old gun until someone does some pressure testing.

 

[pumpgun]

I intend to try an 11/16 oz. load with promo in AA cases, prob. start with 11-11.5 gr. They don't need to be fast. My guess is that those 7/8 oz. loads are all in excess of SAAMI max. pressure. I'd like to see what pressures would be obtained with sub 1200 fps ¾ oz. loads with promo.
BTW I developed a 16g ¾ oz. load using promo, and the velocities were very consistant.

 

[TReX300]

I knew you guys were going to like them.

Tim

 

[Case]

I really have no interest in 7/8 oz. 20 gauge loads. If I want 7/8 oz. I'd just put it in a 12 gauge hull.

I know a MEC No. 25 bushing drops 14.7 grains of Promo. I'll probably start weighing drops from a No. 23 and settle on whatever comes closest to Chris' 12 or 13 grains for 11/16 oz. loads.

I don't see how any of those could be destructive to 20 gauge tubes, but I'll shoot them in my Model 12 anyway.

Maybe the weather will warm up tomorrow and I can get into that.

 

[claysmoker]

Tuesday
Sallisaw

Mostly
Sunny
Hi 52°F

Put on a jacket. We'll be waiting!

 

[winders]

Promo in 20 gauge recipes? That powder burns way to fast to be used in the 20 gauge for 7/8 oz loads. You guys are asking for trouble.......

Scott

 

[JT]

The promo shot EXTREMELY clean. Probably one of the cleanest powders I have seen.

Is that because the pressure was extreme to Promo's normal loadings in the 12 gauge, for which it isn't considered clean?

I don't have a 20 gauge, but did enjoy reading about your experimenting with Promo in the 20 gauge. Do you plan on having them pressure tested? Thanks and good luck.

 

[uglydog]

I have shot many 20 ga 7/8 oz loads using Red Dot and Federal hulls as found in Lyman's 4th edition shotshell manual with no ill affect. I have substituted Promo in these loads and had them run through a strain ***** and was told they appear to be safe in the limited run (10 shells) I gave to be tested. For years I have loaded 1/2 and 3/4 oz loads in the 20 ga using Red Dot instead of the Bullseye some buddies use and I would not have any concerns substituting Promo here either.

 

[winders]

Alliant would publish Red Dot recipes for the 20 gauge if they thought it or Promo were reasonable powders to use in 20 gauge loads.

Maybe Alliant had Red Dot recipes years ago. I suspect that when modern pressure measuring equipment became standard (LUP to PSI) they found these loads to generate too much peak pressure and removed them for the reloading guides.

You have no idea what kind of peak pressures these loads are generating. If you had proper test equipment and you knew these loads were under the 12,000 PSI SAAMI limit, that would be one thing. But you are mixing up recipes for 3/4 oz and 7/8 oz 20 gauges that could be off the charts.

I am not unique in this concern. Read here:

http://www.800shotgun.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=769

Scott

 

[TReX300]

Case...like you said 7/8oz is a little much in the 20 for myself. Thats a 12ga load. Alot of them time I even shoot the 3/4oz loads for it aswell. If it wasn't for my 9 yr old I would have played with the 20ga at all. I last little while though I've been thinking about picking one up. 12.5 Promo and 3/4oz of shot makes for a very inexpensive load. I may have to pick one up just for skeet.

Winders....I talked with Allian as did a couple of others that skeet shoot with and they said ALL old RedDotdat is still good aslong as it's used with the listed components. They also said that Promo can be substituted for RedDot with no ill effects. I agree that the 7/8oz loads with Promo are going to very close or over the limits with the listed components but the 3/4oz loads I would think are fine. We'll have to wait and see.

Tim

 

[claysmoker]

I join Scott and Tim in cautioning that pressures are likely very high, especially with 7/8 oz. We sure don't need to get anybody hurt just to save $20 bucks on 4,500 shells. That is about 11 cents a box.

 

[Case]

Alliant would publish Red Dot recipes for the 20 gauge if they thought it or Promo were reasonable powders to use in 20 gauge loads.

Not necessarily. They don't even publish recipes for 2400 in AA-HS hulls. There's no ballistic reason you can't use 2400 in any .410 hull. Definitely wouldn't be my choice but it was commonly used in .410 in the past and probably still is by many. They don't list it because they're pushing their Alliant 410 powder, which burns up AA-HS hulls at half their normal reloading lifespan.

But Red Dot is a 12 gauge powder and its use in anything else would be nonstandard, so there'd be no reason to publish recipes for it in other gauges.

Such recipes would be wildcat loads and powder companies don't publish recipes for those, especially not in our current litigious society..

Add to all that, the simple fact that most reloaders aren't interested in messing around with 3/4 and 11/16 oz. loads in 12 and 20 gauge.

Only four recipes are listed in Lyman's Shotshell Loading Handbook, 4th Edition for Red Dot in 20 gauge and they're all for Federal paper or plastic target hulls.

In general, 12 gauge Federal hulls have a larger internal capacity than Remington and Winchester and I assume that applies to the 20 gauge also.

I definitely would not use any amount of Promo in Remington or Winchester hulls with 7/8 oz. of shot. Even a reduced powder charge would probably just result in a crappy load.

I definitely will give it a try with 11/16 oz. of shot and probably would with 3/4 oz. if I had any intention of ever using that, which I don't.

Just got to get some bushings in the Sizemaster and see which ones drop what.

No guts, no glory.

Oooops...

 

[pumpgun]

From an older Hercules reloading guide, 1992:
page 38

20g Win AA case
12 grains Red Dot
WAA20 wad with 2 .135 thick card spacers (not necessary with the newer OEM wads)
¾ oz. shot
1200 fps @10,900 psi

I'm mostly interested in ¾ oz. and 11/16 oz. loads in the 1150 fps range. This load would be a reasonable starting point, but I'd back off to 11 gr. promo and go from there. Would send a few to Tom Armbrust to be sure.

 

[Tal/IL]

I will agree that RedDot/Promo is not generally a prudent choice for loading the 20ga because it is too fast burning. Peruse a few manuals and you will see that Case is correct about the Federal cases. As a rule of thumb, you can expect them to run lower pressures than most cases. Likewise, as a rule of thumb, you can expect STS and AA cases to run the highest pressures, all else being equal. Also, note the published load cited by Pumpgun produces high pressures with 12grn and 3/4 oz. And, as for reading pressure signs in shotshells like a center fire rifle cartridge, it doesn't work. They are two entirely different animals. Shotshells operate at pressures far below center fire rifle cartridge pressures. It is likely that you will experience case/gun failure in a shotgun before pressures reach a level that will produce pressure signs.

 

[Case]

Goodbye International, hello Promo...

We're at the gate of a major 20 ga. el cheapo lite-load breakthrough here, folks.

Beautiful Oklahoma day as forecast by claysmoker, so I got right down to business.

I'll just make it pithy and sweeeeeet...

Basic ingredients:

Twice-fired 20 ga. AA-HS hulls
11/16 oz. Remington No. 9 magnum shot (Stock MEC bar -- 300 gr.)
Alliant Promo
W209 primers
New WAA20 wads

Press: Sizemaster
Gun: Winchester Model 12 with Cutts Compensator & Spred-R choke
Chronograph: Oehler Model 35

Stock MEC No. 20 bushing

Average weight: 12.15 gr. (Six drops: 12, 12.2, 12, 12.2, 12.2, 12.3)

Average velocity: 1184
High velocity: 1193
Low velocity: 1169
Extreme spread: 24
Standard deviation: 8 (Astounding!)

Individual velocities:

1169
1187
1190
1193
1187
1170

Stock MEC No. 21 bushing

Average weight: 12.55 gr. (Six drops: 12.5, 12.6, 12.6, 12.5, 12.6, 12.5)

Average velocity: 1232
High velocity: 1242
Low velocity: 1227
Extreme spread: 15
Standard deviation: 4.8 (Double-astounding!)

Individual velocities:

1231
1228
1242
1232
1227
1233

And, as Chris said, the bore ended up clean as a hound's tooth (Triple-astounding!)

Look at how closely all those powder drops metered and look at those LOW standard deviations.

And the proof's definitely in the shooting: Loaded up the rest of the box with the No. 21 bushing and they shattered every clay.

Pressure? No idea, but it can't be anymore than 7/8 oz. Remington Game Loads, which rock me more than I like. I'd have no fear of shooting either of those loads in tubes.

Hey... What else can I say?

Those loads are Winners!

 

[cbxchris]

I think we have found a good 11/16 and 3/4 oz load. I am still a little cautious on the 7/8 oz loads. I can understand someone being careful when its not in the book. A LOT of my rifle loadings aren`t and I have almost blowed rifles up with starter loads before especially in the small calibers. I seldom shoot 7/8 oz loads in 20 gauge much like many of you. I would like the 7/8 oz loads for the occasional trap or SC round. I may keep some international only for that but I`m still not sold on the 13.0 gr load with 7/8oz having to much pressure. We got anyone here that will pressure test? I`ll be glad to ship them.

 

[Case]

I`m still not sold on the 13.0 gr load with 7/8oz having to much pressure.

I pretty well am, interpolating from this load pumpgun posted:

From an older Hercules reloading guide, 1992:
page 38

20g Win AA case
12 grains Red Dot
WAA20 wad with 2 .135 thick card spacers (not necessary with the newer OEM wads)
3/4 oz. shot
1200 fps @10,900 psi

We got anyone here that will pressure test? I`ll be glad to ship them.

OKShotgunner has an Oehler Model 43 system. You might PM him and ask.

 

[TReX300]

There's an old guy that I shoot skeet with sometimes that was real big into rifle wildcatting and I know he did his own pressure testing. I dont know if its the same set up or not but next time I see him I'll ask about it if no one else has gotten it done by then. It might not be till it warms up some. Like I said he's old and doesn't like the cold.

Tim

 

[cbxchris]

You`re probably right. That 12.0 grs with 3/4 and 11.5 or so with 11/16 is probably at the max for pressure. I really like those clean barrels. That probably was the biggest suprise to me after seeing the barrels after playing with 3/4 oz 12 ga loads. Better safe than sorry. I`d have to say this was a very productive experiment though. One that I`m sure going to use. Thanks for your info case.