[mcbirch]

I agree bear. I got a Winchester 9410 about a year ago and have done nearly all of my hunting (except turkey) with it this year. It has been a great gun. I have shot a heap of squirrels and earlier this week I took a nice eight point buck with it opening day of deer season here in Ohio.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=10204

I heard a joke that the only reason was the 410 shotgun was created was so you could take your young son or daughter hunting and when they accidently shoots you, you stand a better than average chance of surviving the experience.

Now it aint that funny of a joke but the point is a lot of people think of the 410 as a kids shotgun. I hunted rabbits one year when I was ten with a single barrel 410. After that I moved up to a 16 gage and then a few year later onto the mighty 12 gage. Its been twenty years now and I have finally made a full circle back to the 410. My new Winchester 9410 is a lot fancier then that old Savage single barrel 410 but its still the same little shot shell.

I think the 410 makes for a fun and challenging gun to use for small and medium game.

mcb[/url]

 

[mcbirch]

First up I have not tried my 410 on game birds yet. Not because I don't think I should but because I have not had a chance to do any serious bird hunting for several years. That will be changing soon my little brother got himself a nice German Short Hair Pointer. I have had my 410 (a Winchester 9410) for a little over a year and I have used it for squirrel, deer (yep, see link in my previous post for that story) and one day of grouse hunting (didn't get a shot).

I agree in principle that bigger is usually better but...

You argue that you once use a 6mm for deer but now believe that the 7mm is better because of its greater lethality and range. But why not step up to 300 RUM? That would be even more lethal and shoot flatter even farther. A good rifle in 50 cal BMG would do and even better job giving a hunter a huge margin of error and still achieve a quick human kill. Yah but that would be over kill?

At 10ft a 22 mag shotshell would be good quail medicine but I have stepped up to a 410 for more lethality at greater range. See the point? You can always step up to something with greater range and more lethality. But if were not careful with that argument we will be using a phalanx cannons to dove hunt and 120mm sabot penetrater rounds to hunt deer.

You must always match the gun you choose to the game your hunting and the environment you will be hunting in. The 410, admittedly has a much more limit use envelope, both in range and shot charge/lethality. But if a hunter is willing to use the 410 within its functional envelope then there is nothing unethical about using a 410. And I don't think you have to be and 'expert' either just a self-disciplined and consciences hunter.

When I said fun and challenging I meant it with the above paragraph in mind. You have to get close to use a 410 for any hunting and that is what makes it both fun and challenging. If your not willing to live with that limitation then don't use a 410 gun but if you are then have fun.

mcb

 

[mcbirch]

Grouse Getter, I did not take anything personal in your response, I did not mean anything personal in mine either. I was merely making counter points.

I can't argue with much of what you say. I guess I lean more towards the idea that your ability to shoot really well with a gun and use it within its effective range is more important then the actual lethality of the gun. But just as shooting the biggest gun you can handle can be taken to the extreme, shooting really well with a real light gun can also be taken to the opposite extreme.

Bunny Hunter, I have the 2002 Traditional model and mine also came with a fixed choke. I'm not sure if it is a different choke then yours was originally, mine is about an Improved Cylinder or light modified. When I first started hunting squirrel with mine I tried some Rem. Factory #4s and those patterned horribly. The patterns were very open even for an Improve Cylinder and very clumpy. I switched to Rem. Factoy #6 for squirrel hunting and got tighter patterns but still not very even.

I finally got my reloader and started working on some loads. I had shot up a case of the new Winchester HS (high strength) 410 hulls at the skeet range. Using these new hull and the new HS wads I got good reloads. The shells originally were loaded pretty hot with #8.5 at 1300 fps. For skeet these loads worked great. So to duplicate the load in my reloader I used Hogden H110 powder. #8.5 shot is hard to find around here so I switched up to #8. These reloads are great skeet round. For squirrel I backed down the powder charge a little and switched to magnum #5 shot. These pattern pretty even and relatively tight for me. The new HS wads are a bit expensive but they are noticeably stiffer then a regular WAA41 wad and seem to help tighten my patterns just a little bit. Its still and improved cylinder but I do get a very even pattern that really put a thumpin' on the squirrels. I have found it only take 2-3 well place #5 pellets moving a bit over 1200fps to bag a squirrel.

I'm surprised you have not got good slug results with yours. Have your tried all of the major brands (Remington, Winchester, Federal)? My 9410 love Remington Sluggers but it shoots Winchester slugs horribly. Have you been able to find a rifle choke tube for yours after having in bored and threaded for tubes?

mcb

 

[mcbirch]

Luck? Maybe, but the ballistics is easy enough to figure.

A 00 buckshot pellet is about 0.33 inches in diameter and weights about 54grains.

12 gage 2-3/4" 00 buckshot spits nine 00 pellets at about 1325fps. The individual pellets have a muzzle energy of about 210ft-lbs per pellet, for a grand total of 1890ft-lbs of energy.

At 45 yards each pellet has about 116 ft-lbs of energy.

410 3" 00 buckshot spits five 00 pellets at about 1190fps. The individual pellets have a muzzle energy of about 170ft-lbs per pellet, for a grand total of 850 ft-lbs of energy.

The 410 has about 45% the total muzzle energy of the 2-3/4" 12 gage.

At 45 yards each pellet from the 410 has about 105 ft-lbs of energy. That's about 9.5% less energy then the same pellet from a 12 gage at the same range.

If either gun will put 3 of those pellets in the preverbal paper plate at that range then I would think the deer wouldn't be able to tell if those pellets came from a 410 or a 12 gage. I have never used buckshot on deer as it is not legal here in Ohio but from the above numbers if you can hit what your shooting at with enough pellets then the 410 looks pretty good ballisticly speaking.

Just some crunchy bits to think about.
mcb

 

[mcbirch]

From Illinois hunting regulations: http://www.dnr.state.il.us/pubaffairs/2 ... Sept03.htm

The legal ammunition for handgun hunting will be a straight-walled centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger that is available as a factory load with the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer showing a capability of at least 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

From Indiana hunting regulations: http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/huntguide1/deerhnt.htm
Some types of handgun cartridges legal for deer hunting include 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, 45 Winchester Magnum, 35 Remington and 357 Herrett.

The 357 Magnum is the lowest energy of the above list and as we know has a standard and very common load of 158 grain bullet doing about 1235fps or about 535ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle

Taken from Colorado's hunting regulation for deer: http://wildlife.state.co.us/regulations/ch02.pdf page 3

Handguns, provided they have a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches and comply with the following criteria:
a. Use a .24 caliber or larger diameter expanding bullet.
b. Use only a cartridge with a rated impact energy of at least 550 ft. pounds at 50 yds. As determined by the manufacturer.

Many states also allow the use of 410 slugs for deer hunting, not all do but many states do. A 410 slug has about 650ft at the muzzle at best. When I chronographed slugs out of my Winchester 9410 I only got 1760fps or about 602 ft-lbs. 410 slugs are below 500 ft-lbs at only 20 yards from the muzzle and have lost half their energy by 55 yards.

Even a 20 gage foster type slug is just below 1000 ft-lbs at 50 yards. The 1000 ft-lbs has always seems to be high for deer to me even if it just muzzle energy and not on target energy. I have heard the 1000 ft-lbs minimum for deer before but have never seen any good science to support that claim. Much like the claims that you need to drink eight-8oz glasses of water a day. There is no scientific study that determines that either, but society latch on to for some reason and it became fact without science. None-the-less from a quick look at several states games law a few of which I quoted above it seems that the various State Divisions of Wildlife seem to think that somewhere between 500 ft-lbs at the muzzle to 500 ft-lbs at the target is a good minimum for deer hunting.

After personally taking a deer at 65 yard this year with my 410 slug gun delivering and estimated 270 ft-lbs at the target it seems that 1000 ft-lbs is a very high benchmark as a minimum requirement. I don't think 1000 ft-lbs is overkill at all and I have shot deer at close range, 35 yards or so, with a 12 slug and of the 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy from that 3" 1oz slug I would be lucky if a 1/3 of that energy actually was delivered to the deer. The slug punched clean through that doe on a quarter away shot that broke the far shoulder and pulverizes a crab apple tree beyond her and then keeps going. The fact is left the doe with significant velocity to do noticeable damage to the crab apple tree meant it took significantly less then 3000 ft-lbs to fully penetrate through that deer. Without knowing the exit velocity we can't say how much but it was quite a bit less then the 3000 ft-lbs and I would guess a bit less then 1000 ft-lbs.

I think 1000 ft-lbs is a good suggestion as a starting place, it is very adequate energy without being overkill. I do not agree that it is a human minimum.

As for buckshot specifically I have never used it to hunt, shot some water jug with it that about it. But it would seem that if 00 buckshot from a 12 gage will kill a deer then the same pellets from a 410 should work assuming that you can put enough of the 00 pellets were they belong in the boiler room. The velocity of the pellet from either is very close. And given the above arguments of energy is would seem that 3-5 pellets place in the boiler would be sufficient to kill a deer. Both the 12 gage and the 410 should be able to meet that requirement at proper ranges for the guns.

mcb

 

[mcbirch]

To me it seems that .410 buckshot for deer at range is just not enough lethality. With a 12 ga. you have more pellets, which (odds say) should give you more hits.

Good stuff- intersting conversation. Thanks mcbirch.

Hmmm. but if a 410 slug is enough (certainly an arguable point, but from my experience I believe it is) then the 410 buck shot has to be enough assuming all five pellets hit. The 410 buck shot has quite a bit more total energy at all ranges then a 410 slug.

When using 12 gage buckshot how many pellets hit the boiler room in a typical shot?

mcb

 

[mcbirch]

Can't argue with that. I was curious if anyone out there that regularly uses buckshot to hunt deer could tell me how many pellets on the perverbial paper plate is considered good for deer hunting? I have been unable to find good preformance critteria for buckshot.

I do agree that the 410 slug is probably better then 410 buckshot but remember a 00 pellet weight 54 grains and a 1/5 ounce (Rem, Win) 410 slug is only 87.5 grains with a horrible BC. As I mentioned above I did take a nice medium size buck this year at 65 yards with my 410 firing slugs.

mcb

 

[mcbirch]

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