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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have ordered a Springfield M6 for trips in the NWT in Canada and am going to delve into reloading shotshells. In the 22 Hornet I am going to rely on 45 grain X bullets at about 2500ft/sec. Work great in my CZ.

Would like a fairly powerful slug load and I don't understand why all available slugs are so light weight. Even the Brenneke which I can't find in Canada tops out at 110 grains. In 12 and 20 the slugs weight nearly as much or as much as the shot load. In the 410 we have 1/2 to 1/3 the weight. A half ounce slug load at 1300 ft/sec should be possible and would weigh 218 grains. If properly constructed this could be a useful addition to a survival gun of this type.

I am considering making some all brass shells from 9.3 x 74 (405 looks like it might work too) and:
1) loading buck shot or multi ball loads with a combined payload of 270 grains.
2) Playing with my lathe and cut an experimental slug mold of 200 grains
3) Hollowing out some existing 35 or 375 bullets to 180-220 grains and trying these.

Any thoughts or guidance?
 

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I havent messed with slug reloading in some time, so I went to a BP's catalog and checked what they had....slim pickings in the .410. However, there are several options based on the 12ga to look at using round balls in a regular shotcup.

They have a new shotgun slug loading and field app book that should be out.

www.ballisticproducts.com
 

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You may wany to consider .444 Marlin hulls for your Muli-Ball loads. Three .375" balls in a plastic shot cup works good also. Brenneke has a new slug out for .410, but all I tested leaded the barrel up about 8" in front of the chamber.
Best Regards, James
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Men...all I can find locally is the Win 1/5 oz slugs and at 88 grains I am unsure what these can be used for. With the sectional density of a pie plate I wouldn't expect much competition. I can buy 1/4 oz Federals in Edmonton I believe and at 110 grains this is a step in the right direction. I think there was old Lyman mold of about 140 grains that would be a good choice and Liberty makes slugs using one of these molds. Is there a reason that you can't go heavier in 410? Seems to me a half ounce slug should be possible.

Looking at the cost of 9.3 x 74R brass I think I am going with 303 Brit for brass loads.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Men...all I can find locally is the Win 1/5 oz slugs and at 88 grains I am unsure what these can be used for. With the sectional density of a pie plate I wouldn't expect much competition. I can buy 1/4 oz Federals in Edmonton I believe and at 110 grains this is a step in the right direction. I think there was old Lyman mold of about 140 grains that would be a good choice and Liberty makes slugs using one of these molds. Is there a reason that you can't go heavier in 410? Seems to me a half ounce slug should be possible.

Looking at the cost of 9.3 x 74R brass I think I am going with 303 Brit for brass loads.
 

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Gregor and All.....As I have said before, weight is weight, and by using care a load for a 1/2 oz slug can be put together (or even 3/4 oz in 3"). I have any extra set of barrels for a Savage/Stevens mod 24 (.22 rf/410) that has been cut to 18". The top barrel is .22 Mag and the bottom barrel is .410....with no choke I plan to set up some kind of slug in the future. At present I load three hard cast .375" ballsin a plastic cup.
Just a thought......If one had a mold for a heavy .38-40 (.401") that the base of the bullet could be lathed out......it might make a nice slug? Best Regards, James
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Lex and ALL

If weight is weight.... I carefully uncrimped and took out the 298 grains of #4 shot in some 3" shells and replaced with 5 balls of 00 buck shot that each way about 53 grains. Total weight 268 grains... and about 2-3 grains of flour for buffer....then recrimped the shell.

Is this a safe practice?
 

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I see no real problem there with the weights you mention. However, when I say "weight is weight" , I do not include the addition of any buffer. Many of us tested flour many years ago. It is true that some outstanding tight patterns can be had, but flour compacts so tight that pressure can go through the roof very quickly. In most cases.......a listed load (without buffer) in the 9,000 psi range can have plastic buffer added and be within the allowable 11,500 psi range. I us only Ballistic Products "Original" buffer and have found it dependable. The ammo companies add the buffer to the shot while it is in the hoppers on the loading machines. There is never a consistant weight mix. The ideal way to add buffer is to vibrate it in after the shot is in the hull. Holding it lightly against a vibrating case cleaner machine, electric razor, etc is the best way to to. Slowly add buffer until only the top layer of shot is covered. Best Regards, James
 

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Also......It is best that you stay within 5% plus or minus in weight....JCG
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well... I am happy with my buckshot loads with 5 00 buckshot balls. Seeing as 12 ***** 2 3/4 inch buckshot loads only pack 9 of these projectiles I have a fair bit of power. Switched to cream of wheat as a buffer. 12 grains of cream of wheat works as a good buffer around the shot. 4 of the shots fit in the existing shot cup the last one is above the cup and requires about half the cream of wheat to surround.

I am using 3" winchester shells originally loaded with #4 shot.

Will post results when my M-6 arrives. Still think a 240 grain slug ought to be possible. I wonder if the loading companies are hesitant to bring out a projectile that would almost put the 410 into deer hunting class. Lots of folks would be tempted by this marginal performance.

I am only interested in adding the most versatility as possible to my M-6. I know the 45 X bullet would harvest a caribou as I have taken several with 53 X's in the 223 with good results. In a survival situation the X bullets would take caribou and small game to 100 yards. If I could get some decently powerful loads for the 410 that would be great.

At 1200 ft/sec I presently have 170 ft pounds/ buckshot ball. 850 foot pounds off the muzzle for all 5.
 

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Interesting! Take a look at Ballistic Products Inc's web page and by all means ask for their catalog. They have about everthing one could want in developing specialized shotshells. Best Regards, James
 

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I have checked around and have not been ablle to find a roll crimp head for .410. Graf & Sons are starting to bring in brass shotshell hulls. I have made some interesting loads for .410 by using .444 Marlin cases....with a slight crimp over a cardboard wad with the .444 Marlin crimp die.
Also..try some of the new 3" Magnum .410 slugs from Brenneke. They weigh 1/4 ounce and have a high velocity. I have shot the in the M6 and a custom slug barrel I made up.
Best Regards, James
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well have the Springfield and am really enjoying it. The Sierra and Hornady 45 grain 22 Hornet shoot into .5"s at 25 yards...pretty good snap to it too. The 45 Barnes X's shoot worse into 1" and the bullet holes are oblong. Will increase the speed and see if I can stabalize them better.
The Win 1/5 oz slugs shoot about 8" low at 25 yards as near as I can tell as my "groups" are about 8-12" at this range. By holding up on the front sight I can center the group. The 5 shot buckshot loads really spread: about an inch a yard! #4 shot leaves huge gaps at 25 yards..need to go smaller ( I'll try #6) and get closer.
Will increase my buffering with the buckshot and see if that helps. As for the slugs... at 15 yards I get about a 6-8" group.
In a survival situation I have a range then of about 15 yards with the shotgun with both slugs and shot. I need to improve on this I can't find Brennekes in Canada nor can I find a roll crimper to reload the heavyweight liberty slugs. maybe the 6's will pattern better for small game.
The rifle looks very promising though! The peep sight has a great sight picture for accurate shooting. [/i]
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
M6 Stainless 22 Hornet/410 Report #2 (If anyone is interested)

OOps... o.k. I should have used a ruler the rifle isn't quite as good as reported and the shotgun not nearly as bad.

The rifle shoots between .6 and .8 at 25 yards. Today at 50 yards a stiffer powder charge behind 45 grain X bullets resulted in a 1.2" group and round holes at the target. The 1-13" twist does stabalize these long copper bullets at speed. This is about as good as I can do with open sights and I am very pleased. I did some plinking at 100 and 150 yards and was impressed with the possibilities... The rifle should also be able to used shorter bullets of 50 and 55 grains like the Sierra semi spitzer.

Win slugs go under 1.5" at 10 yards and into 6" at 25 yards. I reported 8-12 before but as a rifleman I just wasn't use to this kind of spread so I over-estimated it. Slugs tend to string horizontally and shoot about 4-5" under the rifle. Penetration tests were pretty dissapointing. The little slugs are pretty soft and penetrate about half as far on wood and catalogue media as the 45 grain X bullet. The 00 buck isn't far behind the slug and there are 5 of them.

My buckshot loads make a vertical string centered about 4" under the slug loads(at 25 yards). At 5 yards they go into one oblong hole. At 10 yards this has spread to 4" vertical and 1.5" horizontal at 25 yards I have a 12" vertical spread and 3.5" horizontal. One test shot with an unbuffered load at 15 resulted in a pattern similar to the 25 yard cream of wheat load. I made these loads by opening up the crimp on a 3" #4 shell and replacing the shot charge with 5, 00 buckshot balls and 12 grains of cream of wheat (282 grains of total weight as opposed to just over 300 grains of #4 shot in the original). Is the vertical string a sign of anything?

With 3" # 6 shot at 10 yards I have a pretty good pattern at 10 yards about 10" wide. The pattern center is the same place as buck-shot. At 15 yards it gets thinner but usable and by 25 it looks pretty useless to me with big gaps. What sort of range should a full choke 410 have? To me it seems like 20 yards with #6 shot and 15 yards with #4. Is 7.5 a better shot choice? Seems like #4 are the easiest to get but I have no idea what they are for in 410 as the pattern's are very poor at least in the M6.

If I take the plunge into shotshell reloading can I improve on these results? I notice the Win shot cup does not protect the full shot column but surrenders about .5".
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Gregor said:
Have ordered a Springfield M6 for trips in the NWT in Canada and am going to delve into reloading shotshells. In the 22 Hornet I am going to rely on 45 grain X bullets at about 2500ft/sec. Work great in my CZ.

Would like a fairly powerful slug load and I don't understand why all available slugs are so light weight. Even the Brenneke which I can't find in Canada tops out at 110 grains. In 12 and 20 the slugs weight nearly as much or as much as the shot load. In the 410 we have 1/2 to 1/3 the weight. A half ounce slug load at 1300 ft/sec should be possible and would weigh 218 grains. If properly constructed this could be a useful addition to a survival gun of this type.

I am considering making some all brass shells from 9.3 x 74 (405 looks like it might work too) and:
1) loading buck shot or multi ball loads with a combined payload of 270 grains.
2) Playing with my lathe and cut an experimental slug mold of 200 grains
3) Hollowing out some existing 35 or 375 bullets to 180-220 grains and trying these.

Any thoughts or guidance?
I suggest you try my site for your answers. I make what you seek in a heavier slug. My site is at http://dougs410slugs.tsx.org
take a look
 

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Gregor,
Maybe I can help with the .410 issue. I've always been enamored with the .410 and have done quite a bit of leading and experimenting with it. First, if you really want a .410 to pattern, you MUST reload; the exception geing the good 1/2 oz. target loads which are about as good as you can get. The difference in factory field loads and reloads is shot hardness; factory field loads use the ol' soft, easily deformed lead. Since .410's use no wads, but rather a shotcup, the shot needs to be of the high antimony or "magnum" type. This alone helps immeasureably. Next, when you reload, be careful to select loads that generate low chamber pressures as this too will lower shot deformation and tighten patterns. Next, get rid of the full choke. A .410 is NOT a long range shotgun. For a while I shot a SxS .410 with full chokes and found I was very handicapped. Finally, I had screw-in chokes installed for a very reasonable price and I now prmarily use IC & Mod unless the range is quite short then I use SK1 & IC. I have a good friend who does amazing things with a .410 choked SK & SK.
As far as slugs, etc. goes, I've loaded 3"-ers with 3 each .375" round balls substituted for the 11/16 oz. shot load. I informally patterned the load at 25 yds. and found it would easily put all 3 balls in the vital area of a deer at that range. Mind you though, I cast the balls myself out of wheelweights so they were quite a bit harder than the over-the-counter pure lead balls. Hope this helps.
Greg
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Gregor said:
Thanks Men...all I can find locally is the Win 1/5 oz slugs and at 88 grains I am unsure what these can be used for. With the sectional density of a pie plate I wouldn't expect much competition. I can buy 1/4 oz Federals in Edmonton I believe and at 110 grains this is a step in the right direction. I think there was old Lyman mold of about 140 grains that would be a good choice and Liberty makes slugs using one of these molds. Is there a reason that you can't go heavier in 410? Seems to me a half ounce slug should be possible.

Looking at the cost of 9.3 x 74R brass I think I am going with 303 Brit for brass loads.
You can use several hulls or brass cases, please check out the new web page for slugs to reload: http://dougs410slugs.tsx.org
thanks.......Doug Slug
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I am writing back for all who want 410 slugs. My website has had an address change. It is now at http://dougs410slugs.wxs.org/

I have had some problems, now they are gone. Please enjoy
my site, and offer comments in the forum I have started.

Thanks Doug Slug[/b]
 
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