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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Reloading I-skeet shells. Win AA, CB0178, with Win209 and 16.5 g of Extra Lite, 24g of #9. Press is RCBS Grand. In once fired AAs they are as good as factory (maybe a little better). But once the hulls get a few cycles they start to crush and wrinkle in the middle. Switch back to once fired without changing any settings and back to perfect.

I've tried dropping the wad height to more compression to keep the stack from being too tall, more precrimp (and less). Raise the crimp to the point where don't get a roll on the edge, lower it. Lower spring pressure, raise it. No success at all. This weekend tried it again and out of 75, had nearly 50% reject rate. Back to factory quality with once fireds.

So should I just dump the AAs that visibly have some life left? What am I NOT thinking of?
 

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pintailwizard said:
Reloading I-skeet shells. Win AA, CB0178, with Win209 and 16.5 g of Extra Lite, 24g of #9. Press is RCBS Grand. In once fired AAs they are as good as factory (maybe a little better). But once the hulls get a few cycles they start to crush and wrinkle in the middle. Switch back to once fired without changing any settings and back to perfect.

I've tried dropping the wad height to more compression to keep the stack from being too tall, more precrimp (and less). Raise the crimp to the point where don't get a roll on the edge, lower it. Lower spring pressure, raise it. No success at all. This weekend tried it again and out of 75, had nearly 50% reject rate. Back to factory quality with once fireds.

So should I just dump the AAs that visibly have some life left? What am I NOT thinking of?
I don't reload any more, but I seem to recall that Winchester changed their AA hulls about 12 years ago from a one-piece hull to a two-piece hull. Some wads hang up on the lip of the base wad on the two-piece hulls and can result in crushing of the hull.

Another thing is that the volume of the AA one-piece hulls may not be quite as much as other one-piece hulls such as the Rem STS. You might try reducing the volume of shot a little bit and see if that helps.

I can't explain why your reload works with once fired hulls, but not with multiple fired hulls unless they are different construction. You might try changing wads or perhaps a less bulky powder.
 

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At what station do you notice the hulls crushing? Don't own a RCBS so not super familiar with them but if it's in the crimp station or if yours has a 6th station that applies a slight taper to the case mouth this would be the problem. Try backing of the taper die if your press has one, if not then the crimp die needs raised about 1/2 turn and check the results. I have loaded very few AAs because I always had to adjust my press back and forth between those and STS type hulls. I stuck with STS type because Gun clubs they are abundant to pick up in my area at the ranges.
 

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Extra Lite is a bit "fluffy" and the CB0178 wad is a bit long.
It is intended for dense powders like Win WST.
I have to use 50 lbs wad pressure to properly seat this wad with a 7/8 oz payload with 15gr Extra Lite.
Your 24g payload is only a bit smaller.
And I think the hulls weaken with each successive shooting.
You will see a comparable load of 16.3gr Extra Lite with the 1oz CB1100 wad recommended a bit farther down in the Alliant data for 7/8 oz data.
If you switch to the 1oz wad I think your stack height problem will sort itself out.
 

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You ca overload a hull a limited number of times. Move to the 1 oz wad and the issue will go away and you will have better crimps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the input. I've moved the crimp station all over the place and had no better result. Some crush with no roll at all.

Switching to 1 oz wads makes sense, and it's pretty low risk.
 

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I personally know that a 1 1/8 oz wad (WAA12 or replacement) works in a 1 oz load in that AAHS hull. So I am pretty sure a 1 oz wad would work with a 7/8 oz load, ESPECIALLY when Curly says so!
Good luck with that simple fix.

BB
 

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The crimp station is station 7. If you are adjusting this, you may be adjusting wrong station die.

Station 8 is the "final crimp" -- AKA finishing crimp station. That is also a station which crushes hulls when adjusted too low. Raise it until you get no more than the rounding of the front edge of the shell that a factory load shows. Sometimes you do not even need that much.

See your Grand manual at
https://www.rcbs.com/on/demandware.stat ... ctions.pdf

It's important to watch closely for which station is doing the damage to your load, and then adjust THAT station. Since all 3 stations 6, 7 and 8 work on forming the crimp, this area is where careful watching on EACH handle pull will tell you what to fix.

The troubleshooting section in the manual says this about shells that collapse during crimping and final crimp stations:

17. Hulls collapse at Station 7 - crimp:
Wads are not seated deeply enough causing the shot
column to be too high. The crimp die cannot push the
crimp closed over the shot column, exerts excessive force
and collapses the side of the hull.
Too much crimp pressure, reduce crimp spring force.

19. Hull sticks up into Taper Crimp Die at Station 8:
Excessive taper crimp being applied-loosen top lock nut
and raise die.
Or as above, improper wad depth, causing too high of a
shot column.

(This #19 symptom can also be a collapsed shell after the station 8 final crimp die rounds the mouth edge. Even though the manual does not say this directly, a final crimp die that is too low is usually the real problem.)

How high is too high for the shot column? The top of the shot (before crimp starter) should be very close to the roll part of the original factory crimp. That also is where the folds of the petals start. Shot level lower than that, and crimp wants to cave in. Higher than that, and the pressure of folding the crimp in will either collapse the shell, or fail to lock down the crimp and you end up with a coned crimp.

If shot level is not close to that roll and fold area, all the die adjustments in the world will often not fix the problem of too much or too little height of the component stack.

good luck, garrisonjoe
 

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Slowpoke and Curly both said the same thing. And I agree with them. You will solve the problem by going to a 1 oz. wad of the same "type" as the 7/8 oz. wad you are using.
 

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Slowpoke Rodriguez said:
Extra Lite is a bit "fluffy" and the CB0178 wad is a bit long.
It is intended for dense powders like Win WST.
I have to use 50 lbs wad pressure to properly seat this wad with a 7/8 oz payload with 15gr Extra Lite.
Your 24g payload is only a bit smaller.
And I think the hulls weaken with each successive shooting.
You will see a comparable load of 16.3gr Extra Lite with the 1oz CB1100 wad recommended a bit farther down in the Alliant data for 7/8 oz data.
If you switch to the 1oz wad I think your stack height problem will sort itself out.
:shock:

tp
 

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Crushing hulls is usually due to too tall of a stack height. Use 1oz for 7/8s and 7/8 wad for 3/4 oz in AA hulls. Also, extend the tube on the lead drop station to create a little bit of a pre-crush in the wad. That way, the wad crushes and not the hull during the latter stages.

RCBS provides a longer tube for that station for AAs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So an update: I secured on my 3rd attempt some 1 oz wads (pink WAA12SL). Loaded 50 that had been fired at 4 times with the same settings as I'd been using and they were about as perfect as it could be. Then I went to finish up the box of primers out of a bag of hulls that I'm not sure how many times they'd been fired and got 4 crushes out of that 50. I haven't had a chance yet to lower the shot tube setting for these shorter wads, but I'm confident we're on the way to getting it 100% solved.

FWIW, they hit just like the factory and may have burned a little cleaner. Thanks to all for the help.

My source has several bags (and old boxes) of the original WAA12SL. Any issue with really old wads, as the price was really good.
 

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Once a hull has shown a ding in the side, that ding is subject to return, regardless of how smooth the sides look. Mark your crushed hulls and put them straight in the trash after shooting their guts out.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks Curly, I'm too much of a perfectionist to shoot them. If they buckle, they get the knife, reuse the guts and move forward. I'll let you know how the next run goes, with a slightly lowered wad setting. One issue with the Grand is the shot tube (which sets the wad height) slides against a shot shutoff which then puts the pressure on internally. I've realized I need to check this for wear as I put more pressure on the wads to seat and slightly compress.
 

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pintailwizard said:
Thanks Curly, I'm too much of a perfectionist to shoot them. If they buckle, they get the knife, reuse the guts and move forward. I'll let you know how the next run goes, with a slightly lowered wad setting. One issue with the Grand is the shot tube (which sets the wad height) slides against a shot shutoff which then puts the pressure on internally. I've realized I need to check this for wear as I put more pressure on the wads to seat and slightly compress.
Squashing of wads is usually a source of problems later. Tenting up of crimps to name one of them. Better wad selection is a better idea. They all vary a bit in the apparent length as assembled. Side by side height on the bench is a misleading thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So I loaded 200 last night with 1 oz wads, set to a good depth, in the hulls that have been fired multiple times (and were given to me originally by someone else). I watched them as they went into pre-crimp. But I'm pretty sure they were sliding upwards, as 20% buckled in the crimp stage. The rest looked nearly factory perfect. Once I cut the failed ones apart I noted how easily they came out of the crimp end, then I felt and it seemed like the skiving was gone on those. So I cut apart two good ones and noted that the skiving was still there.

I'll just use this 55 gallon drum of hulls and dispose of them after they are loaded. living with the task of cutting some of them apart. Maybe it's inherent in the press, but given that I don't have the problem except in these donated hulls, I think it's a hull issue. Now if I could just find powder and primers.......
 
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