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Howdy ya'll... boy am I glad I found this site. I'm a college boy about ready to graduate next semester and I'm faced with a strange kind of situation.

I've shot firearms since I was big enough to hold a .22, and although I'm no expert compared to you guys (other than a safety expert of course) I have an interest in firearms as a means of personal safety and maybe if I weren't a poor college boy recreation.

Anyway I anticipate living on my own in my own apartment here fairly soon, no room mate, no one but me. At school we're not allowed to have guns, which I don't agree with but I put up with it. I know a lady who wouldn't have been raped on campus if she had been able to defend herself. Horrific but true.

I mention that incident because it was one of my eye opening experiences... I'd always heard about people getting attacked in their own homes or other places they thought were safe and I never thought once it could happen to someone I knew. So I decided a long while ago that when I get out of this living situation, I would not be a helpless victim.

My first thought turned to my Mossberg 500, which I think would make an excellent last resort of defense. Right now I have it fitted with a 28" barrel, but I don't think it would be a challenge to find a shorter barrel. But then I thought of a couple things.

First of all if I were to shoot an intruder in an apartment situation, what about structural penetration? The apartment I'm looking at is a studio apartment. It's a real bachelor pad (i.e. it's tiny). I would never forgive myself if I hurt an innocent person... is there a load perhaps that could lessen the threat here?

Second of all, I am worried about the firearm being conspicuous. I don't like putting up a big sign that says my Weapon is Right Here! I trust my friends, but I don't trust my friend's friends around a firearm. There are some people who have no business handling a firearm. I don't go for pistol grips and I don't like folding stocks either... I like a good solid "feel" to my firearms, if that makes any sense.

Third, what's a good safety mechanism that I could unlock quickly? Right now I use a cable lock and I love it, but I'm worried that if I need the gun in a hurry it would take too long to remove it. On the other hand I am a gun safety nut; I lock up my rifles and my Mossberg; I keep them unloaded; I keep my ammo boxes locked and I keep it all out of sight. Lord, sometimes I won't even point a firearm sideways even when I know it is not loaded. My uncle used to make fun of me for doing that without even realizing it. But there has got to be a compromise here between safety and accessibility. I realize the situation will be different when I am actually keeping my own firearms instead of keeping them in a closet in my parent's house, but I could never live with myself if an innocent person died just because I didn't take 5 seconds to take safety precautions.

Fourth, maybe I shouldn't be considering a shotgun given the situation. I've considered a high powered pistol as perhaps a safer and less conspicuous alternative. Also, if I ever get into recreational shooting I'd like to have several pistols anyway but this is a whole new thread... I was thinking a basic .357 may be a good alternative to a Mossberg 500. My only concern is that if I pull a trigger in the middle of the night, I want to be sure the PCP crazed thug drops dead. Anyone have an opinion or know of a similar site for tactical pistols by chance?

Fifth, I like my Mossberg but I've been digging the Remington 870. Any reccommendations for one or the other? I'm looking to expand my personal collection and I think either a new shotgun or handgun will be my first purchase.

Well anyway no one I know personally has any good advice for me. My dad thinks I should go with a handgun but I'm not sure it's the superior alternative. Everyone else suggests something stupid; apparently some people think they live in a Rambo movie. I won't tell you some of the suggestions I've heard.
Thanks in advance.

MarlandS
Master Archivist
Posts: 1379
(4/9/03 9:30:12 pm)
207.179.218.89
| Edit | Del Re: Apartment Situation: Is Shotgun the way to go?
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In an apartment situation with concerns of hitting neighbors, I'd stay away from a .357 or other potent pistol , heck, if you gut shoot someone it will go clear through with lots of energy left, same might be true with hitting bone.

I'd load the Mossy with AA trap loads you'll stop the perp at close range easy enough and reduce your risk of killing the neighbors.

When you get to using it for personal protection, you'll have to pretty much give up all that anal safety stuff those 5 seconds could mean life and death.

The definition of an unloaded , locked gun is a club.

What you could do is lock and unload the gun when you aren't home but will you remember to unlock and load it every night? and if you forget, how do you work under the stress of a timetable when you are surprised?

James
Unregistered User
(4/12/03 11:13:00 am)
63.226.222.210
| Edit | Del Apartments
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Use the gun your already familiar with and
load it up with fine #8 or #9 shot. Light loads
are very effective at indoor ranges where the pellets
are hanging close together and loose energy
quickly as they hit building material and spread out.

SPRITE
Unregistered User
(4/12/03 10:16:15 pm)
207.40.91.186
| Edit | Del appartment gun
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I agree with the other guys in regards to not using a pistol in a appartment because the walls in these shacks are usualy only 2 pieces of 3/8 thick dry wall with the occational 2x4 wall stud,not near enough to stop a .22lr let alone a .357 mag.I think you should stick with your 500,but with a factory 18.5in. cylinder bore deffence barrel.this will make the gun lighter to carry,and easy to manuver,swing side to side and up and down.If you can't find one used in a local shop for cheap money,get the more common and easier to find 28in. modified barrel and have it cut down to leagal legnth,18 in minn. but check local laws first,and have either a bead or ghost ring sights put on it.I have the above mentioned settup sitting beside my bed,with a bead sight and a tatical flood light that has a off/on swithch mounted above the trigger on the side of the reciever(it is a home made settup,but I have seen similar settups in magazines),.as far as ammo,in your sittuation,I would reccomend a low brass #4or#6such as the ones that winchester make that is labled on the side of the box for phesant&upland game birds.keep the gun under your bed,loaded but with no shell in the chamber,and keep the door locked when company is over and tell no one that it is there,and let no one into the room,and I would concider that safe enough for a home deffence gun.

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 193
(4/14/03 9:20:25 am)
65.31.22.129
| Edit | Del Re: appartment gun
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To be honest use a mixture of ammunition.

Load the first round that will be chambered with something like a #6 shot. Load the rest with #4 buckshot. I have seen some test data that shows target loads can loose too much velocity to do any good, and a life or death situation you can't afford to be wrong. #4 Buckshot will stop an opponent, but you risk overpenetration.

When in doubt of the backstop aim slightly high. Not so high as to hit the ceiling but enough to clear the heads in the next room, that should give you a better backstop.
"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent

James
Unregistered User
(4/17/03 10:00:23 pm)
63.226.222.122
| Edit | Del Apartment defense
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I would like info on the test data that you refer to.
I'm not arguing with you but this would be interesting.

I believe that in an apartment the liability of overpenetration and killing the neighbor next door or up stairs is not worth the risk of using buckshot.

Small shot can be devestating at room distances. Specifically, we've had a local shooting (intruder in the house at room distances) with target loads where the perp was hit in the upper thigh. The leg was nearly amputated, which was a small matter as the perp had gone on to greener pastures before the authorities were on scene. No charges were filed against the homeowner.

James

sprite
Unregistered User
(4/17/03 11:21:38 pm)
207.40.91.68
| Edit | Del appartment defence
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I was talking with a close friend of mine who is in law enforcement the other day.he to lives in a appartment building.I presented him with the same question and asked him if he used his service gun for home defence,or if he had something else.he showed me 2 things,first was a mossberg 500 .410 with a shortend barrel,shortened stock,and a lasser pionter mounted on top like a scope,second was something I had not concidered before,but did not sound like a bad idea, a bean bag gun.at first I thought it would be worthless aginst a doped up intruder.we took it to his fathers house so he could prove me wrong(witch happens from time to time )well,after busting open several watermelons(at close to ten yards!!) I changed my mind.in a skilled set of hands that knew how to opperated it,I think one could do some serious damage to a intruder without being concerened about killing someone on the otherside of the wall(it might go threw,but it would lose so much energy,that you could catch it bare handed and not get hurt.just somthing I thought I would pass along

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 207
(4/22/03 5:44:19 pm)
216.69.223.249
| Edit | Del Re: appartment defence
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James,
Just found the site

Ballistic Data

I also found a ballistic Muzzle energy calculator which privides calculations as to how much energy a SINGLE Projectile will upon exiting the shotgun barrel. Now, this is slanted a LITTLE since it is only one pellet, but it will give a bit of an idea why birdshot is a bad Home defense idea. I have used the data from the above link to attempt to calculate single projectile ballistics assuming the following:

"A single projectile strikes a target at muzzle velocity from a firearm, having average weight for said projectile."

I included handgun ballistics as a general comparison, ad to prove that I'm not just making up numbers....
*All calculations are estimated to within 3fps* (software limitations, sorry.)

Caliber (weight/speed) Approx. Muzzle Energy
.22LR (37gr., 1138fps) [email protected]
.38Spl (130gr., 950fps) [email protected]
9mm (124gr., 1125fps.) [email protected]
.44Mag (240gr., 1120fps) [email protected]
.45Auto (230gr., 830fps) [email protected]

-12ga-
Birdshot
#12 (.18gr., 1280fps) [email protected]
#11 (.25gr., 1280fps) [email protected]
#9 (.75gr., 1280fps) [email protected]
#8 1/2 (.88gr., 1280fps) [email protected]
#8 (1.07gr., 1280fps) [email protected]
#7 1/2 (1.25gr., 1255fps) [email protected]
#6 (1.95gr., 1255fps) [email protected]
#5 (2.58gr., 1255fps) [email protected]
#4 (3.24gr., 1255fps) [email protected]
#2 (4.86gr., 1255fps) [email protected]
BB (8.75gr., 1255fps) [email protected]

Buck Shot
#4 (20.6gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
#3 (23.4gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
#2 (29.4gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
#1 (40.0gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
0 (48.3gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
00 (53.8gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
000 (68.0gr., 1250fps) [email protected]
1oz Slug Rifled
(437.5gr., 1680fps) [email protected]
1oz Sabot Slug
(437.5gr., 1450fps) [email protected]

As you can see from the data, anything below #2 buckshot is less powerfull than a .22LR. Statisticly, anything below about #4 birdshot has less effect per shell than a .22LR. You lose the ability to penetrate deeply enough "to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

This doesn't mean that #12 birdshot is harmless, it just means that the liklyhood of stopping an attacker with one shot is greatly reduced.
"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent

James
Unregistered User
(4/23/03 12:29:06 am)
63.226.220.107
| Edit | Del Thanks
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Hello Guardian,

OK, now I have to argue :~)

We both understand that you can't compare one pellet's energy out of a shotgun to a bullet from any pistol or rifle and disregard that the effect of the shotgun is in the sum of the parts (585 pellets of #9 shot to an oz.)
#9's are the smallest shot that is readily available over the counter. At a light 1 oz. load that has over 1,600 ft lbs of energy. A far cry from any of the handgun loads listed.
At interior room distances,or even down the hall, we're talking about engagement ranges in feet, not yards. A hit at these ranges would most likely include the entire load.
The article is interesting and I found it worth reading. But it lumps police use with home defense where engagement ranges are likely to be much greater. This appears to be the reason for the strong slant toward buckshot. In fact in summary the article states-

"With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition."

I do find some fault with the part that says that 4-6" penetration is not enough to reach the vitals. (my own reasoning) Most men are not so thick where if you blew a 4" hole in their chest that the shot load would fail to reach vital organs or major blood vessels.

Well that's gotta be worth 2 cents (or not)

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 211
(4/23/03 5:15:45 pm)
216.69.223.249
| Edit | Del Re: Clarification
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James,

I really was including the Handgun data as a matter of comparison, and also to prove that I wasn't randomly picking numbers out of my head. I am in no way implying that a .22 is better than a 12 ga shotgun. I was simply comparing data.

I do understand what you're referring to about #9 shot having a total of over 1,600ft-lbs of energy. This is a very logical conclusion, as I thought the same thing for quite a while. Actually, I thought the same thing to a point when I was writing last night. However this is a situation where 1 1 does not equal 2.

Here's why. A .22LR is exhibiting [email protected] to a single point with a total area of .152"sq at 12'(3yds is considered the average range of engagement.) a 12 ga. shotshell loaded with #9 shot is exhibiting [email protected] to a total of about 585 individual points, with a total area of 9.62" sq. at 12'. That means that one pellet will strike about .016" apart at 12'.

Yes, that will create a permanent wound channel of on initial impact, but considering that #4 Buckshot will only create this enlarged channel for the first 2" of penetration, #9 birdshot should separate into individual wound channels within the first 1/2"-1". After that, you will have about 585 different wound channels delivering it's own [email protected] to a separate wound channel

Ballistics Gel Test Sketch

The link is a drawing of a ballistics gelatin after being hit with #4 buckshot at 1300fps . The measurements are in Centimeters, so every mark is really 2". According to that test, #4 buckshot only travels 10"-11" into ballistics gel.

The other thing that I don't think is taken into account by ballistics gel is the fact that bullets/pellets may impact bone. Smaller projectiles such as the #9 birdshot will deflect off of bone. This means a shot aiming at the heart may lose 50-80% of the pellets to encounters with the sternum or ribs.

That means you are relying on pain to stop an intruder. This is a bad Idea for two reasons. One, you never know if you will go up against a 5' 110lb burglar that is stone sober, or a 6' 8" 290lb morphine addict who can block out pain very well. Two, the criminal/criminal's family will have a field day prosecuting YOU for assault, malice, attempted murder and about a half a dozen other things because you just hurt him, or had to shoot him 2-3 times to stop him.

Never assume that you will get a second shot. If one doesn't guarantee a stop, you're wasting ammunition and playing Russian roulette with your life.
"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent

James
Unregistered User
(4/24/03 12:16:49 am)
63.226.222.161
| Edit | Del Interesting
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Guardian,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Regarding the 9.62 sq stat. is that a reference to the expected pattern at 12 feet or is that the surface area of 1 oz. of #9's?
I agree that 1+1 does not always equal 2 In this case I would argue that it equals 3. The whole is much greater than the parts.

Also, I like the ballistic gelatin drawing, too bad there isn't a similar drawing for birdshot at close range. I thought it was very interesting that the wad is shown to penetrate four inches. Curious how many ft. lbs the plastic adds :~)

I like your line of thought. Still have not convinced me to concede though.
I would say if your going for effect without regard to over penetration then slugs are the way to go (deep primary), at short range where punching walls is a concern, I would not feel undergunned stoked with 7-1/2 or 8 target loads. If you've ever put something down with 'em, there is little doubt they are up to task.

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 212
(4/24/03 3:06:52 pm)
216.69.223.249
| Edit | Del Wound Ballistics
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James,

No Problem. I enjoy the debate, We both get a little education this way. I have to read new things and find information to expalin my point, and I get the added benefit of learning why you see things the way you do.

The 9.62" sq is the approximate area of a 3.5" circle, which should be the area of impact for the pellets at 12' (assuming you have a factory barrel with a Cyl choke). This can change considerably depending on choke and ammo brand.

I found a few other interesting articles concerning Wound Ballistics, and what accually happens to the human body to stop an attacker. I will summarize what I found to be key points and also link the article so you can read the entire section.

Wound Ballistics

This first article deals largly with handgun wound trauma, however the medical aspect is the important part.

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

"Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."

Basically, Unless you can cause enough trauma to cause a rapid loss of oxygen or the destruction of the central nervous system, the pain tolerance will determine the quickness of stopping the assailant. High pain tolerance equals multiple shots, and possibly your own injury.

The International Wound Ballistics Association requires a penetration depth of 12"-18" in order to be considered an excellent defense round.

Another article,

Federal Personal Defense Shotshell Performance Data

"This penetration performance more closely matches the data in Figure 10-8, Lead Alloy Sphere Penetration Depth, in Duncan MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration. MacPherson's figure shows a maximum penetration depth potential approximately 7-inches for #2 lead birdshot propelled at 1140 fps."

states that #2 birdshot only penetrates 7". #7 1/2" would be considerably less.
"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent

James
Unregistered User
(4/25/03 11:09:44 pm)
63.226.221.189
| Edit | Del apples and oranges
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Problem with the wound ballistic article is that it deals solely with pistol rounds (relatively low power).
Even states in the very first line "The only method of reliably stopping a human with a HANDGUN...". Thus, the need for deep (or overpenetration).
Here the reasoning is that the relatively small secondary wound channel (shock) is not large enough to effect the central nervous system without a direct hit on the spinal cord or brain.
This is the proverbial apples and oranges.
Shotgun projectiles (minus slugs) do their work by a combined swatting effect that shocks the body being hit.
Direct damage to vital organs is important in dispatching the target via the loss of blood and oxygen.
Shock kills via overloading the central nervous system and causing a shutdown of the capilary bed.

When turkey hunters are accidentally killed in the field this is due to the shock of small (4 or 6) shot. At potentially extended ranges (at the very least, they are greater than the 12' we're looking at here).

From the words of Richard Alden Knight the author of Mastering the Shotgun 1975 - (who survived an accidental shooting in the mid 1950's while hunting sora rail at a distance of approx. 50 yards with #9 shot)
"I weigh 180 pounds and stand almost 6 feet in my stockings. I was braced solidly across that bow seat. I felt myself hit a gigantic blow across the back; then dully I could hear the crack of Dad's 20 gauge as I fell straight forward into the marsh. My head roared; my back felt as if I had been swatted with a baseball bat. Numb, I crawled back into the boat, unloaded my shotgun, and sat there dazed. After a few moments, I slipped off my poplin safari cloth shooting jacket, under which I was wearing a wool sweater and a khaki shirt. THere, tattooed on the cloth of the back, was the whole story. Twenty-eight No. 9 pellets had centered on me, all striking full on the back of my jacket....Though the tall reeds had filtered a majority of the wallop out of the shot charge, the massive blow those infinitesimal bits of lead had dealt me really impressed me with their power. Had we been 15 yards closer, I doubt if I would be writing this today." p. 77

Twenty-eight No. 9 pellets at 50 yards, through brush knocked him face down. God forbid he had caught the other 600 pellets in that load. I'm glad he lived to write about it as the rest of his book is worth reading. One of the few to be on the recieving end of small shot and able to talk about it.

Further, Jack O'Conner in The Shotgun Book 1965 mentions how he killed two deer with bird shot. One with No. 7-1/2 and the other with No. 6 shot at a distance he describes as in feet not yards. "If anyone thinks bird shot won't kill a buck, he should take a crack at one at a few yards while the charge is still hanging together." p. 297

Food for thought or fuel on the fire?
James

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 214
(4/27/03 11:54:14 pm)
65.31.22.129
| Edit | Del Re: apples and oranges
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Food for thought definatly.......

I'm going to have to see what I do about testing different Shotgun loads this summer...

I still have to say that I would rather load with a #1buck, but I will reevaluate the recommendations on small shot.

"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent
 
G

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I was reading a artical the other day about different bullet types for use by sky-marshels,s in airplanes.They where using bissmoth no-tox for the reason that one,it is heaveir than lead(more energy transffered to whatever is being killed),and 2,it would brake up,or turn into harmless powder apon hiting the wall.with this in mind,what about using a 3" bissmoth duck load,say a number 2 or 4?Another thought,no matter what you decide to use,you might also want to find out where your neighbors bedrooms are,and either place large furnature(such as a enertianment center,or a large bookshelf full of books) there to block the pellets,or you could also hang up a coupleof those big goudy thick blankets like some people like to use for decoation.I know that the blankets don't do a lot,but hey,every little bit helps
 

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One factor that has been overlooked in the buckshot/birdshot debate is the fact that the shot is travelling in "waves". While there's no doubt a #9 pellet has very little penetration power, it will certainly clear a path for the pellets behind it. If there are 585 pellets in a 3" circle, how many layers are there? The first wave penetrates an inch, maybe less, softening the tissue and making it easier for the following waves to get at deeper targets. This certainly would allow for more damage than just inflicting pain.
The furniture placement idea is pure genius.
 

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A buddy of mine keeps his 870P stoked with #7 1/2 birdshot, regular low-brass dove loads. While he's never had a real life situation in which to test it, he and I both feel confident that it should do the trick against any boogeymen! Out to seven yards, it's basically a solid mass of flying lead anyway...

Just my .02 cents
 

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phildenton said:
I can help you out, [and i am in no way affiliated with this company] i found this at online, http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=213926
this is where i buy alot of stuff like milsurp ammo for my mosin.

you could also try a door-breeching round for defense if you want.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=213920
ummmmm... bad advice on door breeching rounds for HD...

i've tried them...

they are designed for "doors" ie hardened locksets and hinges, not humans... the metallic powder, cast under pressure, is designed to disintegrate when it meets an object as hard as itself... it will sail through sheetrock like any other slug projectile
 

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www.theboxotruth.com
take a look at the shotgun section. buckshot penetrated less then rifle and pistol rounds.

in regards to birdshot beinbg used for HD, some pictures were posted on SGW a year or two ago that showed a guy who tried to kill himself with a shotgun loaded with #6 shot... he had to shoot himself several times before he finally died. the box o' truth also shows that birdshot doesn't penetrate anywhere near enough to be an effective HD round.
 

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chips said:
in regards to birdshot beinbg used for HD, some pictures were posted on SGW a year or two ago that showed a guy who tried to kill himself with a shotgun loaded with #6 shot... he had to shoot himself several times before he finally died.
Ouch.

-Kid
 

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it was just a thought. however it would put a man down. and it is cheeper than those "safety discs". and as far as birdshot you dont have to kill a man to stop him, but at that close a range itis only a matter of how long it takes to die. [but then hes more likely to turn around and sue you if he survives]. a person dumb enough to kill themself deserves pain.
 

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CincinnastyKid said:
chips said:
in regards to birdshot beinbg used for HD, some pictures were posted on SGW a year or two ago that showed a guy who tried to kill himself with a shotgun loaded with #6 shot... he had to shoot himself several times before he finally died.
Ouch.

-Kid
that dude was determined... "several" times? dang...

mine is loaded with 00 buck managed recoil from remington, but then i'm not in an apartment situation... even if i was, i think i'd still stay away from the birdshot...
 

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sad...

:roll:
 
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