[jeager106]

Smooth bore slug barrels are a thing of the past, if you ask me.

If you are buying .... Spend a few more dollars, and get a rifled one.

If you are selling it .... just give it to someone who traps, so they can use it for a club for critters

I read that post and nearly spit coffee all over the keyboard from laughing so hard.

This is a 1 7/8 group fired at 50 yards using one of the cheapest slugs on the market.
Brenneke K.O. on sale last year at a buck 87 a five pack.
Today and buck 87 won't get you ONE saboted 12 gauge slug.
This group is TYPICAL of groups with good smooth bores and ammo.
From what I've read here and from my own experience I have yet to see TYPICAL groups any better CONSISTANTLY with saboted ammo and rifled barrels.
Almost everything I read here is " I got a 3 shot group under 2" at 100 yards once with my 800 buck rifled gun and 20 bucks a 5 pack sabot slugs."
And I never, ever, see pictures of said groups on a CONSISTANT basis.
And the above group was shot with a CHEAP, used, 150 buck, Mossy 500 with a CHEAP Bushnell s.g. scope.
So are smoothies obsolete?
NO.
Do a little research and look at the millions of rounds of foster slugs sold last year in s.g. only States.
By the way.
The K.O. and Mossy will group anywhere between 3 to 5 inches at one hundred yards.
From what I've read many guys are having trouble getting CONSISTANT 3" groups with sabot ammo.
Please. If anyone out there is getting 3" and better CONSISTANTLY with saboted ammo post some pics and let us in in the secret.
By the way.
My Mossy with fiber optic sights will do as well with K.O. and Winchester ammo.
So will my h.d. shootie, the 870 Remington with a modified choke and good sights.
Let's see now?
Have I got this right?
Good groups, inexpensive gun, deadly on deer to about 125 yards, cost a buck 87 a 5 pack vs. expensive gun, inconsistant groups with ammo that cost 3 to 4 BUCKS a shot.
What am I missing here?

 

[jjas]

Jeager106,

I switched to the sabot/rifled barrel deal years ago. It was new, it had to be better! As the years have past, I've found that sabots/rifled bores can be very accurate (especially @ ranges past 75 yards or so), but I've also dealt with the "flyers" that seem to plague saboted ammo @ times.

I know finding "smooth bore" slug barrels is getting harder, but I still contend that @ most woods ranges, the smooth bore barrel can be a great option for many hunters (and as you pointed out, it costs a hell of a lot less to shoot them, too!)

Thanks for the post Jeager,

Jim

 

[J.Mol.]

I've taken many deer with my smooth bore and IC choke out to 60 yards, no problem. When I installed a rifled choke tube I was able to shoot 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards, more than sufficient for hunting within 100yrds. Since I'm planning to hunt with an outfitter this year in Ohio, I wanted something a little better, so I bought the H&R 20ga.

 

[jeager106]

Thanks for the responses fellas.
I hear what you are saying.
I wonder if some members will really understand what I am saying tho.

Look at the group in the photo.
It is TYPICAL of smooth bore performance with CHEAP ammo.
Here's my point.
Let me SEE some groups, actual photo's of groups fired with sabot slugs, not full bore non discarding sabots, but true sabot slugs from a rifled barrel at 100, 150 and 200 yards.
I hear the claims but see NOTHING.
What I read here, for two seasons now, is:
"help I can't get my rifle barrel to shoot at 150 yards with brand X ammo at FIVE DOLLARS A SHOT!"

That is what I read here.
Don't believe me?
Well go ahead pilgrim, READ the posts.
Most of them are "help me" posts.
There are a few that post here of terrific results with the expensive sabot ammo.
But:
"I got 3 shots into 1.5" at 100 and ONLY two flyers that made the otherwise good group FIVE inches" is NOT an endorsement of great accuracy.
It's a story relating that by and large, sabot ammo, especially 12 gauge, is throwing one or more of five out of the group.
THAT IS PISS POOR PERFORMANCE.
Don't anyone see that?
Listen:
You CAN and should get 5" MINIMUM groups from a properly TUNED smooth bore and foster type slugs that fit the bore.
Lemme see now.
One more time.
5 shots for a buck 87 and all shots are EASILY in the deer kill zone at 100 (really further) yards versus 4 to 5 DOLLARS A SHOT with sabot slugs that don't generally do much better than a smooth bore.
Again:
What am I missing here?

 

[J.Mol.]

If you really want to shoot 150yrds and beyond and you can't use a rifle, get yourself a muzzleloader or preferably a smokeless savage 10ML-II. I would have purchased the savage if smokeless powder was legal in NJ. I will be hunting private land in NJ this year but who knows about next year. NJ SUCKS BIG TIME with its rules and regs.

 

[J.Mol.]

If you really want to shoot 150yrds and beyond and you can't use a rifle, get yourself a muzzleloader or preferably a smokeless savage 10ML-II. I would have purchased the savage if smokeless powder was legal in NJ. I will be hunting private land in NJ this year but who knows about next year. NJ SUCKS BIG TIME with its rules and regs.

 

[J.Mol.]

Now how did that happen????????

 

[jeager106]

Now how did that happen????????

You wanted to emphasize your post?
I get it that you think N.J. sucks.
I've also heard that N.J. is a good place to be from.
As far away from as you can get! :x :x

Hey. It ain't me that wants to shoot 200 yards with a shotgun.
It's me that is being REALISTIC and asking for the straight skinny on sabot slug performance at 100, 150, and 200 yards.
It's me that knows a smoothie is fully capable of shooting 5" (and better) groups at 100.
Frankly I owned one 870 that could, would and DID shoot 2" at 100 yards with smooth bore barrel and Winchester foster slugs with TWO different shooters!
The rest of the crowd at the range was as amazed by that s.g. as I was.
I admit that was UNUSUAL for a smoothie.
I wish I had that s.g. back to this day.
What I am saying is that many s.g. slug shooters are chasing thier behinds by trying to turn a 12 ga. rifled barrel sabot shooting slug gun into a 200 yard RIFLE.
Now once again.
Show me the groups at 100, 150 and 200 yards made by sabot slug shooting rifled barrel shotguns and tell me why the smoothie is obsolete?
Pleeeeease, no Tarhunt stories.
I'd like to see the performance from a s.g. that costs mite less that 1200 to 2000 dollars.
The Tarhunt ain't a s.g.
It's a bolt action .73 bore rifle in every definition of the term.

 

[jcchartboy]

By the way.
The K.O. and Mossy will group anywhere between 3 to 5 inches at one hundred yards.
From what I've read many guys are having trouble getting CONSISTANT 3" groups with sabot ammo.
Please. If anyone out there is getting 3" and better CONSISTANTLY with saboted ammo post some pics and let us in in the secret.

That seems like an awfull lot to say about other members, claiming most members are not honestly receiving the accuracy levels they claim at 100yds simply because they are not showing pictures....Then following that comment by stating how great your accuracy is, (if you consider 3-5" great), and not posting any 100yd pics yourself.....No?

Frankly I don't really care what smoothbores do, it just seems your post is filled with alot of assumptions and false conclusions..

The one thing I do agree with though, if you are happy with 5" groups then you may not need a rifled barrel...

JC

 

[J.Mol.]

Maybe you should post your 2" group at 100 yards so everyone can believe you???

 

[jeager106]

That 2" group was a very long time ago, before rifled s.g. barrels and sabot bullets existed.
Today I get 3 to 5" with a M-500 and K.O. sabots.
Perhaps you don't remember posts I made last year with plenty of pictures??????????
Most of those posts were about rifled barrels and sabot slugs.
I have three smoothies and two rifled shotguns.
The best accuracy I could get from the rifled barrels was with the hammerhead slugs.
I don't recall offhand what the distances were and it's a moot point now.
I'm sure at least 75 yards and the groups were right at 1" which I consider quite good.
The hammerhead, like the other non discarding sabot slugs are NOT capable of two hundred yard deer killing accuracy but no one ever claimed they were.
The ballistics just are not there.
My point is NOT that smoothies can shoot 2" at 100.
The point is that smoothies are hardly obsolete.
5" is plenty good good enough to kill a deer at 100 but I, like most of us, here want better.
That's why I have two rifled shotguns.
I just haven't found the sabot slug yet that will group five bullets into 2" or better consistantly at 100 yards.
Just because there are rifled barrels and ammo that costs 4 to 5 dollars each shot does not mean that the ammo is capable of 2" or better at 100 yards and I have yet to see anyone posting any pics of 1" or 2" groups with any rifled barrel/slug combo at that distance.
Am I missing the posts?
Am I missing the success stories?
Once again let me remind members here that the thrust of this post is that smoothies are not obsolete, only useful as clubs.
That's a ridiculous acertion.
So who here is getting 2" or better, for five shots consistantly with sabot slugs? What slugs and with what shotgun?

 

[jeager106]

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=122902
This thread was interesting and TYPICAL.

 

[old ammo]

I've also heard that N.J. is a good place to be from.
As far away from as you can get! :x :x

now now jeager, don't rub it in. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[J.Mol.]

I don't hear anyone saying smoothies are obsolete, but they are definitely not as accurate as a rifled barrel with sabots. The experience of the shooter obviously comes into play here.

The biggest advantage of the sabot, at least IMO, exist in the 20 ga. A 20g sabot now has enough down range energy to drop deer out to 150yards, and with less recoil than a 12. This to me is the only reason I bought the rifled slug gun.

That thread you referenced doesn't mean anything to me. You can give 5 people the most accurate rifle in the world shooting from the most expensive and fancy rests and each one of them will have different results. To tell you the truth, I would be much more impressed to see someone drop a deer in its tracks at 200-250 yards with a centerfire rifle shooting from a free standing position than any bench shooter shooting 5 shots in one hole at 100 yards.

 

[old ammo]

wileyhunter quote
Smooth bore slug barrels are a thing of the past, if you ask me.

If you are buying .... Spend a few more dollars, and get a rifled one.

If you are selling it .... just give it to someone who traps, so they can use it for a club for critters.

sounds like obsolete to me.

 

[jcchartboy]

ob·so·lete (ŏb'sə-lēt', ŏb'sə-lēt')

Outmoded in design, style, or construction:

The smoothbore shotgun for use in deer hunting is by definition obsolete...there is no debating that.

The only question is...does the cost savings associated with shooting smoothbore guns at the range justify using them while hunting...?

The obvious answer is...it all depends on what is more important to a person, saving less than a few hundred dollars a year...or increasing their odds of ethically harvesting an animal... :wink:

JC

 

[jjas]

ob·so·lete (ŏb'sə-lēt', ŏb'sə-lēt')

Outmoded in design, style, or construction:

The smoothbore shotgun for use in deer hunting is by definition obsolete...there is no debating that.

The only question is...does the cost savings associated with shooting smoothbore guns at the range justify using them while hunting...?

The obvious answer is...it all depends on what is more important to a person, saving less than a few hundred dollars a year...or increasing their odds of ethically harvesting an animal... :wink:

JC

JC,

I think it all depends on what you are looking for in a slug gun and how/where it will be used.

If you hunt in places that are typically thick and your shots are less than 75 yards, I don't see what you lose using a 12 gauge smoothbore and fosters or brennekes if your slug/gun combo can shoot tight groups @ 50 yards. I don't think it's "ethically" wrong to do this @ all. I would agree that slinging fosters @ long range is probably not the most ethical thing to do, but I'm talking about fairly close shots here.

Personally, I would rather a guy shoot @ closer ranges with his smoothie/foster combo that he's comfortable with (because he can afford to target shoot more often) than a guy who skimps on practice with sabots because of the cost and slings them @ 150 yards because the box says he can.

Jim

 

[OneInchGroup]

Kind of a shame to write off a whole category of weapons as obsolete just because there is a more modern, more accurate, faster, higher energy, and lots more expensive new alternative available. Guess this means I've got to throw both my crossbows and my blackpowder guns in the dumpster, them being all obsolete, and unethical, and all.

Might be more logical to figure that all this hardware has a legitimate application, depending upon the circumstances. Having been down the road a couple times, I can tell you that there are plenty of heavy brush woods in the PRM where a sabot gun with a nice scope and high velocity, long range sabots will just make you look like a big dummy, about the time Big Buckie jumps up from a hide ten yards out. THEN you get to say, "Gee, if I'd only had my old smoothie with the steel sights, I might have had a chance at that............ :roll:
Usually its not the hardware, its the plan, or lack of one, that decides the hunt results for the day. Slug Hunting is just like every other situation you run across in life, requiring a bit of mental flexibility for success, not just a one size fits all solution.

Besides with Brennekke slugs at $2.95 a box, Hastings 100-150 yard sabots at $8.95, and some of the "modern" fast-fast, light-light sabots upwards of $17.95 for 5 shots, those old smoothies look like pretty good general purpose meat grinders to me.......... :lol:

Of course if you don't mind throwing down a "couple hundred dollars" worth of cash for long range ethics and modernity, well, then, that's a horse of another color, evidently green, I guess? :lol:

 

[jjas]

Besides with Brennekke slugs at $2.95 a box, Hastings 100-150 yard sabots at $8.95, and some of the "modern" fast-fast, light-light sabots upwards of $17.95 for 5 shots, those old smoothies look like pretty good general purpose meat grinders to me..........

Cost is becoming a huge factor with many of my friends and fellow shooters @ my gun club. $3.00-$4.00 per round is just too expensive for much target shooting. I know of a few guys who are buying "tactical" shotguns and using fosters or brennekes through them for hunting.

A few of the other guys are pulling their old smoothies out and using them this year instead of paying for high dollar saboted ammo. Still others have abandoned their slug guns altogether and are using either Pistol cartridge carbines (they are legal in Indiana this year) or their muzzleloaders.

For many, coughing up big bucks for saboted ammo isn't working for them anymore. Not when there are cost effective substitutes.
Jim

 

[18.5"]

A few months ago I decided to get a dedicated slug gun for hunting close to home so that after work or if I didn't want to travel 20 miles or so I could still hunt as the area I live in is a "Firearm Restricted Zone". That means no centerfire rifles but does allow for slug guns, muzzleloaders, handguns and bows to be used.

The quarry I pursue the most is Black Bear as here in Washinton state the season for bear runs for 3 and a half months unlike deer which is a 2 week season at best for modern firearms. Washington is not a shotgun only state so I usually use a rifle for sitting over clear cuts and mountain or desert hunting where ranges can easily be 100 to 500 yards but the areas close to home are heavily forested with thick brush and overgrown logging roads and shots on game are normally 50 yards or less with a LONG shot at maybe 70 yards.

I looked close at Rem 870's with cantilever rifled barrels, Nef USH's, .44 mag and .45 Colt Ruger handguns and a muzzleloader. I like things that go boom so a bow was not an issue. Didn't want one for calling bears with predator calls as they can get aggressive when they think your dinner!

A smoothbore pump shotgun was the ideal choice for me as my .357 is a marginal bear gun and a bigger handgun wasn't a real versatile choice, a muzzleloader does not lend itself to quick follow up shots and the cost of sabot slugs is a ripoff as I couldn't use the slightly better accuracy and ballistics at the ranges I'd be shooting at so the 870 was out. When the bear, not to mention the cougars, your hunting weigh as much or more than you do and have big sharp teeth and claws and your pretending to be dinner a powerful repeating gun is in order!

The smoothbore pump gives me reliability, fast followup shots, good knockdown power and accuracy with the Brenneke Heavy Field Short Magnums is 3 and a half inch groups at 70 yards or better! Thats out of the Mossberg 500 18.5 in barreled smoothbore with a red dot sight on it, total cost under 300 bucks.

Obsolete...Hardly...It's the absolute BEST choice I could have made! and inexpensive to shoot on top of that!

To be fair if I lived in a shotgun only state I could see the utility of trying to stretch the capability of a shotgun but if I want to "ETHICALLY" harvest game past 100 yards I use a high powered rifle as it is a MUCH better tool for the job than ANY shotgun!

I can't see spending 4 bucks a shot for any gun except maybe a classic african heavy rifle caliber.

Since the same bullets from Barnes, Remington, Hornady and others cost a dollar or less if I buy them for a muzzle loader why do the same bullets cost 3-5 bucks a shot out of a shotgun? Wads, hulls, powder and primers are cheap. How come sabot slugs cost so much for a shotgun? Marketing! and the fact that the ammo producers have you poor folks in shotgun only states by the balls! Want pseudo short range rifle performance? Get out your checkbook! It'll cost ya! I feel for you poor folks...

For certain situations like mine a smoothbore slug gun is the only sensible choice IMHO.

Just my two cents worth...