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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Smooth bore slug barrels are a thing of the past, if you ask me.

If you are buying .... Spend a few more dollars, and get a rifled one.

If you are selling it .... just give it to someone who traps, so they can use it for a club for critters


I read that post and nearly spit coffee all over the keyboard from laughing so hard.



This is a 1 7/8 group fired at 50 yards using one of the cheapest slugs on the market.
Brenneke K.O. on sale last year at a buck 87 a five pack.
Today and buck 87 won't get you ONE saboted 12 gauge slug.
This group is TYPICAL of groups with good smooth bores and ammo.
From what I've read here and from my own experience I have yet to see TYPICAL groups any better CONSISTANTLY with saboted ammo and rifled barrels.
Almost everything I read here is " I got a 3 shot group under 2" at 100 yards once with my 800 buck rifled gun and 20 bucks a 5 pack sabot slugs."
And I never, ever, see pictures of said groups on a CONSISTANT basis.
And the above group was shot with a CHEAP, used, 150 buck, Mossy 500 with a CHEAP Bushnell s.g. scope.
So are smoothies obsolete?
NO.
Do a little research and look at the millions of rounds of foster slugs sold last year in s.g. only States.
By the way.
The K.O. and Mossy will group anywhere between 3 to 5 inches at one hundred yards.
From what I've read many guys are having trouble getting CONSISTANT 3" groups with sabot ammo.
Please. If anyone out there is getting 3" and better CONSISTANTLY with saboted ammo post some pics and let us in in the secret.
By the way.
My Mossy with fiber optic sights will do as well with K.O. and Winchester ammo.
So will my h.d. shootie, the 870 Remington with a modified choke and good sights.
Let's see now?
Have I got this right?
Good groups, inexpensive gun, deadly on deer to about 125 yards, cost a buck 87 a 5 pack vs. expensive gun, inconsistant groups with ammo that cost 3 to 4 BUCKS a shot.
What am I missing here?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the responses fellas.
I hear what you are saying.
I wonder if some members will really understand what I am saying tho.
:(
Look at the group in the photo.
It is TYPICAL of smooth bore performance with CHEAP ammo.
Here's my point.
Let me SEE some groups, actual photo's of groups fired with sabot slugs, not full bore non discarding sabots, but true sabot slugs from a rifled barrel at 100, 150 and 200 yards.
I hear the claims but see NOTHING.
What I read here, for two seasons now, is:
"help I can't get my rifle barrel to shoot at 150 yards with brand X ammo at FIVE DOLLARS A SHOT!"

That is what I read here.
Don't believe me?
Well go ahead pilgrim, READ the posts.
Most of them are "help me" posts.
There are a few that post here of terrific results with the expensive sabot ammo.
But:
"I got 3 shots into 1.5" at 100 and ONLY two flyers that made the otherwise good group FIVE inches" is NOT an endorsement of great accuracy.
It's a story relating that by and large, sabot ammo, especially 12 gauge, is throwing one or more of five out of the group.
THAT IS PISS POOR PERFORMANCE.
Don't anyone see that? :eek:
Listen:
You CAN and should get 5" MINIMUM groups from a properly TUNED smooth bore and foster type slugs that fit the bore.
Lemme see now.
One more time.
5 shots for a buck 87 and all shots are EASILY in the deer kill zone at 100 (really further) yards versus 4 to 5 DOLLARS A SHOT with sabot slugs that don't generally do much better than a smooth bore.
Again:
What am I missing here?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
J.Mol. said:
Now how did that happen????????
You wanted to emphasize your post?
I get it that you think N.J. sucks. :D
I've also heard that N.J. is a good place to be from.
As far away from as you can get! :x :x

Hey. It ain't me that wants to shoot 200 yards with a shotgun.
It's me that is being REALISTIC and asking for the straight skinny on sabot slug performance at 100, 150, and 200 yards.
It's me that knows a smoothie is fully capable of shooting 5" (and better) groups at 100.
Frankly I owned one 870 that could, would and DID shoot 2" at 100 yards with smooth bore barrel and Winchester foster slugs with TWO different shooters!
The rest of the crowd at the range was as amazed by that s.g. as I was.
I admit that was UNUSUAL for a smoothie.
I wish I had that s.g. back to this day.
What I am saying is that many s.g. slug shooters are chasing thier behinds by trying to turn a 12 ga. rifled barrel sabot shooting slug gun into a 200 yard RIFLE.
Now once again.
Show me the groups at 100, 150 and 200 yards made by sabot slug shooting rifled barrel shotguns and tell me why the smoothie is obsolete?
Pleeeeease, no Tarhunt stories.
I'd like to see the performance from a s.g. that costs mite less that 1200 to 2000 dollars.
The Tarhunt ain't a s.g.
It's a bolt action .73 bore rifle in every definition of the term.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That 2" group was a very long time ago, before rifled s.g. barrels and sabot bullets existed.
Today I get 3 to 5" with a M-500 and K.O. sabots.
Perhaps you don't remember posts I made last year with plenty of pictures??????????
Most of those posts were about rifled barrels and sabot slugs.
I have three smoothies and two rifled shotguns.
The best accuracy I could get from the rifled barrels was with the hammerhead slugs.
I don't recall offhand what the distances were and it's a moot point now.
I'm sure at least 75 yards and the groups were right at 1" which I consider quite good.
The hammerhead, like the other non discarding sabot slugs are NOT capable of two hundred yard deer killing accuracy but no one ever claimed they were.
The ballistics just are not there.
My point is NOT that smoothies can shoot 2" at 100.
The point is that smoothies are hardly obsolete.
5" is plenty good good enough to kill a deer at 100 but I, like most of us, here want better.
That's why I have two rifled shotguns.
I just haven't found the sabot slug yet that will group five bullets into 2" or better consistantly at 100 yards.
Just because there are rifled barrels and ammo that costs 4 to 5 dollars each shot does not mean that the ammo is capable of 2" or better at 100 yards and I have yet to see anyone posting any pics of 1" or 2" groups with any rifled barrel/slug combo at that distance.
Am I missing the posts?
Am I missing the success stories?
Once again let me remind members here that the thrust of this post is that smoothies are not obsolete, only useful as clubs.
That's a ridiculous acertion.

So who here is getting 2" or better, for five shots consistantly with sabot slugs? What slugs and with what shotgun?
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Nice debate. :D
I suppose by J.C.'s definition we shlud toss our muzzle loaders in the trash heap and our 30-06 which is iver 100 year old, and our .44 mag handguns 'cause the S&W .500 mag is not on the market making anything less O B S O L E T E.
Now don't thake anything here as a pershonal insult.
Nothing is meant to be a personal attack.
All I want to do is point out that the smoothie and plain vanilla slugs certainly do have a well deserved place in the deeer woods.
Smoothies can easily be tweaked, tuned, and tickled into giving outstanding accuracy at 50, 75, and 100 yards.
Ammo is 1/4th the cost of sabot ammo.
I have a foot in both worlds and have yet to run into a sabot slug that will give me consistant 5 ahot groups at any range without at least one "flyer" spoiling the otherwise good group.
I'm disappointed in todays ammo that costs up to 5 bucks a pop.
The 20 gauge might just be the horse of another color.
The 20 may be the gauge that conquores the flyer issue.
Dunno. Too early to tell yet.
There is no doubt from my experience and from my perpective only that the full bore non discarding sabot slugs are far superior to the discarding sabots.
Problem is the full bores won't range as well as the nice looking bullets that our ammo makers load today.
So if I'm going to shoot to 100 or 125 yards max this year then why not use the Mossy 500 and slugs that cost under 2 bucks a 5 pack?
Who out there is getting consistant 5 shot gorups at 100 yards with sabot slugs and rifled barrels that measure 2" or better???
What sabots and what barrels?
Once again. Don't take any of this drivel as a personal attack.
It isn't. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
:w

Well I kinda knew this would happen when I deliberately opened the thread the way I did with pics to back up my statements.
Pics and 40 YEARS of experience with smoothbores and Foster type slugs.
JC: Your definition of what Webster says about obsolete is meaningless in this discussion.
Don't take that as an insult because I'm flat stating up front I'm not trying to insult anyone.
I think I'm a mature enough adult to take some controversy without getting offended.
If we want to talk about Websters definitions of language perhaps we should join an Amature Writers talk board.
You might want to argue the 30-30 and 30-06 rifle cartridges are "obsolete" but to what point?
By the way, I like the comments about the smoothbore tank cannon. :p
I suppose that makes rifled artillery o b s o l e t e ????
My points are being completely missed by a few.
SHOW ME the sabot slug/rifled barrel combo that throws CONSISTANT 5 shot groups at 100 yards under 2".
In all this useless diatribe about word meanings I have yet to see the rifle barrel/sabot slug shooter post any meaningful INFORMATION of use to anyone.
JC: I rather thought for sure that by now you would have posted some HELPFUL information about rifled 12 bore barrels and good grouping ammo.
I remain a tad disappointed.
My expensive research from last year, before I got so damned injured and crippled up last April, showed me that the ONLY ammo suitable for rifled 12 bore barrels was the NONDISCARDING ammo such as the HAMMERHEAD.
Hammerhead is a reloaders dream.
However there are drawbacks to the hammerhead.
Range is NOT increased over the smoothbore/foster.
By its very design it will not shoot much futher than the foster, but is will darned sure shoot more accurately than any foster OR discarding sabot.
NOTE:
I'm not claiming in any way, shape, or form, that sabot/rifled barrel combos can't shoot 2" and better.
What I am saying, (NOW HEAR THIS CLEARLY) is that I read a lot more negative things from average shooters, the average Joe asking for help because his new rifled/sabot shooter won't shoot well past a measly 50 or 75 yards and this with ammo that cost 4 to 5 bucks a pop.
A smooth bore will kill deer to 100/125 yards with ease.
Find the ammo the gun performs with.
Secure the barrel to the action.
CLEAN the lead outa the barrel.
Get good sights.
Lube the slugs if you can and it wil reduce leading.
Shoot all you want in practice at the range for under 3 bucks a fiver pack, probably much under 3 bucks.
Let the fun continue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
JC:
If you please.
I clearly stated that I mean NO personal attack on any individual, do not intend to be personally argumentative at the expense of any individual.
ARGUMENT in the scientific sense is healthy.
Personal slander is sophomoric at best.
The vast majority of posts on the 'slug shooter' threads are "help me, my gun won't shoot" type threads.
The smoothie is by no means obsolete, merely older and different.
It remains:
cheaper to buy
cheaper to shoot
effective
popular
more foster slugs are sold than discarding sabots by a wide margin.
Now can we please continue HELPING others and not continue playing word definitions?
I have the utmost respect for your posts and information on your results with your own shooting and your love of the sabot bullet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
ppro:
Good comments indeed.
The title question was tongue in cheek humorous but a few missed that point.
It was NOT a serious question, "Are smoothies obsolete?", rather a satire in response to some bozo that said the smoothie was suitable only for a fur trapper to club animals with.
A smooth bore 12 gauge barrel with rifle sights doubles as a find brush busting rabbit and grouse gun, and a deadly home defense gun with what ever load you deem appropriate to that task.
FLEXBILITY is the hallmark of the short barrel smooth bore.
And please, I have no desire to read Websters definition of flexibility.
I was really hoping that someone here would post some good rebutal to the satiric question tho and maybe even a pic or two of some nice 1" sabot/rifled barrel groups at 100 yards. :(
By the way. I dusted off the 12 bore H&R USH and some 385 grain Winchester and Remington sabot slugs.
Results at 125 yards, the max at my back yard range, was a dismal 6" spread for the Winny offering with nothing that even looked like a promising cluster of shots.
Remington faired much better clustering 3 shots under an inch with only two flyers making me a nice 4" group. :?
How much are they now?
16 to 18 bucks for 5?
I remain unimpressed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
J:
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! :D
Demonstrable evidence, eye catching and factual.
The problem is that most of us can't afford a TarHunt.
Wish I could see those kinds of results from any of the popular and affordable Remingtons or Mossbergs.
9 bucks for SST ammo is on the very affordable side but, sadly, around here it's 12 bucks and up a five pack.
Wally had some Remington 385 grain sabots for pennies under 15 bucks a fiver.
Since those shoot best in my Ultra Slugger, just under 4" average at 100 that's what I'll go with.
Unless I cave and use the jeager .58 flinter or the T/C Black Diamond, or the 870 smoothie.
That Ultra is a heavy gun to lug around.
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
Thank you once again JC.
I think we must admit tho that the 2.6" group at 75 yards isn't exactly stellar.
A tuned smoothie can do that and more at 75 at a fraction of the cost of ammunition.
What I am looking for from members here is positive results from the TWELVE bore s.g. in the popular pump action and single shot shotguns.
By the way.
I'm thinking FIVE shot groups, not three.
I have gotten three in one ragged hole many times but two of the five open up to around 4" or worse at 100.
So we have a standard I'm looking for.
12 gauge.
Pump
Autoloader
Single shot
Five shot groups.
I'd settle for an average of 3".
SHOW ME.
 

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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
I just keep reading "help me" posts all over this forum from shooters of discarding sabots and rifled barrels.
Why?

Is the smooth bore and fosters as accurate as the rifled barrel and sabots?
Maybe.
Sometimes.
Depends.
From the complaints and plea for help, the descriptions such as " my rifled s.g. is all over the place " I'd say maybe some tuned smoothbores outshoot many ailing rifled barrels with expensive ammo.
JC. You seem to be getting pretty fair accuracy from your Savage bolt gun and what you call 9 buck a box ammo.
I already mentioned that SST ammo is 12 bucks and more around these parts.
I can clearly demonstrate groups of UNDER 2" at 50 yards, UNDER 3" at 75 yards from downright CHEAP K.O. ammo and a well tuned downright CHEAP M-500 pump.
A 2 M.O.A. smoothie?
That is a rare beast indeed. I had one that would toss Winchester fosters into 2" at 100 but that was years, and years, ago a very, very, well tuned 870, pinned barrel etc., and ammo from the same lot #.
I doubt, seriously doubt, a smoothie can consistantly shoot 2 MOA.
No one ever said they could.
But from what I'm reading here from the VAST majority of posters is that the rifled guns they are shooting with expensive ammo are NOT shooting anywhere near 2" at 50 and 3" at 100.
A tunned smoothie will and with cheap ammo.
THAT is the crux of my argument.
You seem to want to argue for the sake of it.
I accept argument in the scientific sense only.
I was hoping some other members here would be showing me 2 MOA groups with some rifled pump or auto loader and be specific about the brand of ammo.
By the way.
The cheapest 'sabot" ammo I can find anywhere on the net is Hastings which is a nondiscarding sabot at 8.99 to 9.99 per 5.
I can find NO SST ammo under about 13 bucks a fiver.
 

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Discussion Starter · #88 ·
JC:
Thanks for the links! :D
Those prices are simply awesome.
In what firearm do you use the SST?
What kind of accuracy to you get at 100 and 150 yards?
I'll spend 9 bucks a five pack for ammo that performs from either my 870 cantilever 12 bore or my Ultra slugger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
J.Mol. said:
JC, why do you waste your time with this guy??
John
John.
The idea behind these gun sites is to share our experience with other members.
If you don't like the content of my posts that's fine.
I've made many statements that nothing I post is a personal attack on anyone or anyone's equpment.
I've read a lot of posts on this site and a huge percentage are from rifled slug shooters getting terrible accuracy from discarding sabots.
I do read a LOT of posts where non discarding sabots are turning in good results from rifled tubes.
My tongue in cheek post was in response to a person that claimed the smooth bore was good only for clubing animals.
The vast majority of s.g./slug hunters still use the foster and smoothie and with darned good results.
I'm still searching for the rifled barrel/discarding sabot that will shoot at least 2" at 100 yards.
I've tried the SST, 385 offerings from both Winchester and Remington, 400 grain Winchester, Brenneke sabot, Remington Copper Solids, Federals offereings and more.
Still no 2" FIVE SHOT groups at 100 yards. :? :?
So, John, what can you offer to help a fellow member in his quest for an accurate discarding sabot bullet?
 
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