[astomb]

Greetings all
I am helping a young woman learn to shoot a shotgun and she seems to have center vision or very weak eye dominance.

I often let a novice shoot at a few targets before I check eye dominance. She shouldered the gun on her right shoulder and then tilted her head over the comb to put her left eye over the barrel. I have only seen center vision a few times. I did not have my chap stick to force her to use her right eye. I got her breaking some targets by having her close her left eye. I would like to know how shooters with center vision manage this problem.

 

[Drew Hause]

Much of what we have believed regarding women and eye dominance is incorrect; including this -
How to Tell Which Eye is Dominant For Shooting - Kim Rhode

"80-90% of women are dominant left eye…"

What IS correct is that women are much more likely to require some form of occlusion of the off eye

Kim uses tape

as does Corey Cogdell-Unrein

Lela Hall Frank, and 2 other female shooters, are shown at the 1940 GAH clearly closing their left eyes; at about 30 sec.
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/vide ... /502472065

1986. Vicki Ash, Sandy Brister, Sue King shooting, Sandi Nail, and Ann Fields. Vicki wore a very dark lens on the left to compensate.

The problem is that "dominance" doesn't really capture all that is going on with binocular vision: there are LOTS of visual processing issues - binocular rivalry, rivalry dominance, stereopsis, motion perception threshold, and lots more I don't understand
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/fi ... ye.852691/

1. Large studies show only a small gender difference in ocular dominance
2. Experienced coaches observe that a large number of women shooters need some form of occlusive. It seems however that younger elite level females are less likely to need an occlusive.
3. There IS a gender difference in processing motion
https://www.medicaldaily.com/men-proces ... ays-426953
4. The ability to "see things in slow motion" (Zeitraffer phenomenon) would be of great advantage in clay target shooting.
5. There is a relationship between cross dominance and having migraines with aura; which occurs in a greater incidence in females

Suppositions
1. It may be that young women who would like to shoot experience frustration with undiagnosed "seeing the target" issues and give up and go play basketball or soccer, selecting out young women without issues.
2. Possibly processing the motion of a clay target with two eyed visual input takes longer (for women) than with one eye?

More here
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/fe ... es.836675/

 

[Gunsite Guy]

Great question and great reply. I look forward to seeing more on this thread.

Thanks,

s/f Steve

 

[astomb]

Drew Hause:
Thank you for the superbly documented reply. I am old enough that I recognized Vicky Ash and Sandy Brister in that squad of women shooters. Bob Brister was my hero as I grew up in south Texas.

Kim Rhode's quotation is a great one to remember. As a male with clear right eye dominance and very good distance vision, I have been somewhat reluctant to block the vision of the off eye. I have been wrong.

Thanks again.

 

[mea culpa]

By closing the off eye is depth perception inhibited?

 

[Trickster]

By closing the off eye is depth perception inhibited?

Yes, but because our eyes are so close together, depth perception through stereoscopic vision doesn't really count beyond about 20 feet.

 

[JoeCool]

Greetings all
I would like to know how shooters with center vision manage this problem.

I guess I have center vision, meaning my dominance is weak. It used to be strong or so I thought, because I could not hit anything if shooting from the "off-eye" side, unless I closed an eye or used an occlusion. However I was wrong, with some training I was able to shoot both sides both eyes open, but it was not an over night thing. The vast majority of people are not going to go to any more trouble than they have to though, so they pretty much go with the blink or something on their glasses. If someone does want to develop the off-eye shooting most can do it with some heavy BB gun training, but like I said, most are going to do the most immediate easiest thing that gives acceptable results now.

 

[geometric]

This is very interesting to me. I am not sure what I have but I think I am weak left eye dominate. I am left handed but when I am not shooting, typically doing something like reading, my eye dominance can shift back & forth. When I was younger, I often squinted or closed my right eye. The only clays I shoot are the ones thrown with my personal trap. Over time, I started shooting with both eyes open. My bird shooting ranges from fantastic to those days Brister says, in his book, that everybody has sooner or later when the best thing to do is put your gun up & come back another day. I am definitely not a woman, one of the few things my wife will agree with me on, but I have played with occlusion of my right eye. I am not sure that it helped but have wondered if I should try it again. It seems that a piece of tape on your glasses couldn't do a lot of harm & could help.

 

[Drew Hause]

Some more light reading for ya' geometric

Dominance Switching Poll with review of the science
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/do ... ll.778281/

Poll: Corrective measures that have resolved my dominance issues
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/po ... es.778369/

Blurring your cross-dominate eye
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/bl ... ye.622705/

Cross firing remedies
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/cr ... es.682433/
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 2&t=477564

 

[BMPregler]

I have central vision and it is a pain. I've learned through coaching by Derrick Mein to look hard at the bird with both eyes and close my left eye just before I pull the trigger. YMMV. Good luck

 

[rpenmanparker]

By closing the off eye is depth perception inhibited?

Yes, but because our eyes are so close together, depth perception through stereoscopic vision doesn't really count beyond about 20 feet.

That is exactly correct. Closing one eye just reduces the visual field maybe 20% because of overlap between the two eyes. Negligible effect on depth perception at clay shooting distances. It is a small price to pay for unambiguous vision, and the ability to aim down the barrel without actually looking at the barrel is a bonus.

The rule of thumb is that stereoscopic vision is effective up to 100x the distance between the eyes or about 6 cm. So 6 meters is really very close to 20 feet like the man said.

 

[JoeCool]

I believe that weak dominance is a plus, but most believe
strong dominance is a plus. Either theory might be right.
Some thoughts to go along with it, consider the fiber optic
sights, the ones that are mounted in a tunnel. This sight
keeps the off-eye from seeing the bead. Some like that sight
and some don't like it. That MAY have something to do with
strong or weak dominance. Some people like them because
it eliminates the dominance switching, and gives constant
easily recognized presentation to the brain of where the gun
is pointing. Some don't like because they say it brings their
attention from the target to the sight.

What all this tells you is that it has a lot to do with where
your focus is. Everyone knows or at least says focus should
be on the target. The only problem is, if your dominance is
weak and you have some switching going on, then you are
apt to become unsure of where the gun is pointing. When
that happens your tendency to drop focus from the target and
recheck where the sight is pointed by letting your focus come
back to the sight. In that situation, it is probably better to
have the optic sight, so that you do not become unsure of
where the gun is pointed. Maybe though with strong dominance,
that barrel is always perceived right there in center vision while
the focus is out on the target.

I suppose everyone has to figure out the combination that is
working for themselves. Me, I think the bright highly visible
sight that can only be seen by the eye behind it is the best,
and I have way less tendency to lose focus on the target and
recheck where the barrel is.

Maybe everyone has to figure out what is best for the way
his dominance and focus works.

 

[nikko12]

Sounds like my daughter. Strongly right handed, eyes can't make up their mind. For $15 or so bucks, Magic Dot's and Bob's your uncle. Have a niece that is a world class level smallbore shooter, she blocks her left eye. It never occurred to her dumb uncle last time shooting skeet with her that she very likely could have an eye dominance issue. Does ok at trap (really doesn't shoot shotguns enough), but crossers she struggles with. Have to check that out next time I get to shoot with her.

 

[Gil Ash]

As a professional coach for 29 years a lot of things have changed neurologically as well as visually and as things have changed so have we.

We seldom check for dominance

Most dominance issues come from the shooter looking down the gun which leads to the shooter calling pull and chasing the target with the muzzle and consciously trying to fix the shot at the end

When shooters understand what the sight picture is supposed to look like and train their brain to give them what THEY want it to the dominance issues melt away.

Shooting a shotgun at a moving target is visually the most confusing thing a human being can take on

The harder you mount the gun the more you will look at
The end of the barrel

If the shooter looks down the barrel and is focused on a distant object the shooter sees two barrels and if focused on the bead they see two targets.

There's don't see the brain sees and how you want the retinal images from each eye interpreted is really up to you and how you train.

Like mounting the gun or swinging a golf club it must be learned and it is not muscle memory it is the brain learning the sequence of visual events and how you want them to occur and it is your memory of the sequence that allows for the brain to repeat and correct the sequence.

This drill has been used by hundreds of thousands of shooters world wide to eliminate the visual confusion when focusing on an object at 30 yards and registering an object in front of your face at 35"!

The two bullet drill. Right handed shooter.

Place two objects in a book shelf about 15" apart and with an unloaded gun look at the left object and mount the gun on the right object which is the sight picture on a left to right target (eyes to the left of the barrel). Now look at the right object and mount on the left object which would be the sight picture on a right to left target (eyes across the barrel. Repeat until the confusion goes away. Your brain is having to combine two retinal images into one that are 32" in front of your nose while looking at a distant object 30 yards away. This very confusing in the beginning but if you will practice this drill 20 min a day for 21 days it will look clear and the eye problems will go away.

#OSPSchool #Krieghoff #Fiocchiammo #SkeeterBoats #Briley #Laporte #LongRange #EAR #ProEars #BestWingshooting #Mossberg930 #wolfRange

What you perceive visually has little to do with what you just saw but it does have a lot to do with how many times you have seen it and interpreted the sequence in a certain way.

All your timing circuits in your brain are developed with binocular vision

When you close an eye you do loose depth perception but more importantly your perceived lead will double or even triple.

A two eyed lead is as much as half or more LESS than a one eyed lead

When we take shooters from one eyed to two once they understand the sight picture and can replicate it we tell them to cut their lead in half and they are instantly successful!!

The targets seem 1/3 smaller and 35% faster with one eye than with two eyes

While confusing in the beginning we have had great success helping shooters shoot with two eyes but you can't look down the barrel with two eyes and you can with one eye.

In the end it becomes a choice by the shooter

If successful with a shotgun your vision will evolve and with the right kind of experience and deliberate practice it will evolve sooner than later but like any skill your vision must be trained and the more you train it the better it gets

The better it gets the more the brain will learn to ignore the off image of the gun and clearer things will become.

Any effort that emboldens skill building requires pushing through confusion and failure until the brain understands how you want the stream of visual data interpreted.

Skill in any arena is the ability of the brain to know what is coming next when you first begin an effort!

The farther in front the brain can anticipate the more skillful the athlete

Our brains automatize our skill circuits so they happen without thinking which allows for the brain to focus on fewer things the better it gets at anything.

You can't think and hit a moving target with a shotgun because the thinking brain is 1/3 of a second behind real time. If you are thinking you are trying to use short term memory

There is no skill in short term memory

All skill resides in long term memory and long term memory is developed through deliberate practice and repetition which enables the brain to know what is coming next which is why routines are so important.

Shooters who have done the simple drill above and done it a lot have been able to push through the confusion and shoot with both eyes.

The picture of Vicki was when she was trying to totally occlude her strong left eye and it mad her sick at her stomach and dizzy.

While she is still left eye dominant she shoots pretty well with both eyes open off her right shoulder and if you would like to talk to her about her journey call 281-346-0888 and set up a consult with her.

Dizzy dean said "if you can do it it ain't bragging"

Hope this helps

 

[Drew Hause]

So after 30 years of shooting two eyed, right eye dominant and from the right shoulder, suddenly I discovered that Skeet high 4 must be led 12 feet rather than 7, and low 4 (with a fast swing) with no lead, when previously it was 5 feet.
Similarly, on a hard right on Trap station 5 I needed a 8 foot lead; a hard left on station one, I now needed no lead.
Because I was now perceiving the barrel-bead-bird relationship with my left eye. Nothing changed with my hard focus on the target. What changed was I switched dominance.

With a dot blocking my left eye from "seeing" the barrel and bead, I'm back to my previous leads. Not less. Certainly not more. And the targets do not appear to be either faster nor slower.
How does that work exactly Gil?

and doesn't this mean your students are measuring the lead?
"When we take shooters from one eyed to two once they understand the sight picture and can replicate it we tell them to cut their lead in half and they are instantly successful!!"

 

[Drew Hause]

I've looked hard and have found NO elite level male International Trap or Skeet competitors who use an off-eye occlusive

This is interesting; an impressive group of Italians in 1980 shooting handicap. Giulio Bordi definitely closes his left eye at 1:08

Lance Bade was a one-eye shooter. 1996 Mens Trap bronze medal; 2003 Pan American Games Trap Gold; Mens Double Trap, 2000 Sydney Olympics, 6th.
"You don't have to shoot with both eyes in this game. One eye has its advantages: you see a little sharper image of your barrel. You don't get a blurred barrel or a double barrel or a double target."

Almost no Elite younger female competitors use occlusives; not so more mature females.

Satu Makela-Nummela, Finland uses tape. Beijing 2008 Olympic Woman's Trap Gold. Also won the Gold Medal of the ISSF World Cup, June 2016 in Baku, Azerbaijan.

Suzanne Balogh, AUS

 

[rpenmanparker]

I'm pretty sure that the required lead (barrel in front of target) you see with one eye open is the true lead. The lead you see with two eyes open is false. Apparently folks learn to deal with it, to understand how to use it effectively, but that doesn't make it real.

 

[Ezra Smack]

Educate me. Is central vision sort of like being ambidextrous with your eyes?

 

[rpenmanparker]

I have heard tell of experiments in which elite shooters were surreptitiously photographed from the front while shooting. Supposedly no one or almost no one was caught closing an eye. No one has shown me the actual results. That is something I would like to see.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Educate me. Is central vision sort of like being ambidextrous with your eyes?

I think of it as being undexterous with your eyes.