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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ties in these events used to be determined by long-runs. Now they are usually shot-off. When they started using shoot-offs, most shooters thought it a good idea simply because it gave more shooters a shoot-off experience.

Are you you still happy with shoot-offs for these?
 

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I like shootoffs. While I think there is merit in the program at the World shoot of only shooting off class 1st and concurrent 1st and long running everything else (off course tied long runs shoot off), my personal opinion is that if the long run would affect a monetary distribution then it is only fair to the shooters to shoot it off. Here in Utah we shoot off any place that is going to be reported in the shoot report. We have small shoots, but I think a bare fair minimum is to shoot off anything that involves money, regardless of the size of the shoot. Yes, I am a little put off at being long-run for A3 in the HOA at the World this year, instead of A2. There was money involved and in my opinion that necessitates a shoot off. A shoot off I likely would have lost, mind you all, because I was shooting terrible doubles at the World, but a shoot off nonetheless.
 

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Long runs are a meaningless indicator of performance. Because one person missed one for a 99 early in the first round or late in the last round does not indicate any superior performance that one missed one target in the middle for a 99. Long runs have nothing to do with any competitive measure and are only put in place as an expidient convenience to shoot management since it allows places to be determined with less effort and time. Doesn't make it right.

The first year I ran the NS, I long ran some categories, it was a mistake, next year I decided to shoot off everything and maintain that is the right and only way to competitively break ties.

One can argue that middle station doubles has nothing to do with the singles game whose ties it attempts to break, but it is at least a competition of shooting vs long runs.
 

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Mike,
Actually only 100's, Gun Champs and Class Champs are shot off, unless of course the are places to be established where identical long runs are present. All other places are long run.

I too like to see everything shot-off, but lets face it, these can become very cumbersome to accomplish and only add to the time many would like to be somewhere else, eating dinner for example. It also drags out the process for those running the shoot, keeping them there far longer than would otherwise be necessary. Also shooting everything off is many times a fairly expensive thing for the host clubs.

I think it's probably proper to Shoot-off everything, in shoots of less than say 50 or 75 shooters. However with the larger shoots, the long run system would seem the better way to go for all involved.

I know that not all will agree with this, but in my mind, that's the most practical way of doing it. Long dragged out, some in daylight, and some under the lights, and 8:00 PM finishes, are just not my cup of tea. I've seen this all too often.

DLM
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Consider this situation they were discussing at the club. At big shoot, with substantial class purses, they shot-off the concurrents (points, no money), but used long run for the classes and the class purses.
 
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Long runs are a means of discriminating among like totals in order to save time and money. It makes sense if you consider that skeet is a game of being able to put lots of hits together in a row. Your 99 from the front has more merit than say 55 from the front discriminating in that way. In any other light I can make scant sense of it. The rules should be spelled out in the shoot prospectus and posted in prominent places at the venue. You live by the sword and you die by the sword. In that light it is fair. I am all in favor of shorter, briefer, faster and I can live with it if I know the rules going in.

Mike
 

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if you consider that skeet is a game of being able to put lots of hits together in a row
I disagree. Skeet is a game of posting the most dead bird and the least lost birds within the event, be it 50, 100, or some other number of birds in the event. Long run is meaningless as a discriminator EXCEPT as a convenience to shoot management.
 

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Actually I agree with Stephen, that it's really just a convienience to shoot management, and isn't necessarily fair to all concerned.

Case in point, say you shot a 98 with a front run of 26 and a back run of 55, giving you a long run of 55.

Joe Shooter shot a 98 also with a front run of 0, and a back run of 5, giving him a long run of 5.

Your long run of 55 would win, although in reality Joe put together a string of 93 targets in a row, (in the middle).

Now, just who was the actual best shooter, or should we say performer. You both shot 98's, no question, but when you examine the performance, Joe's 93 straight performance in the middle, out steps anything you did, yet you win.

Stephen is certainly correct, it only serves as a convenience to management.

Is it totally fair, Hell NO !!!

Then again, not everything in life is fair, and this is just 1 instance. However as I stated earlier, in large shoots such as the Worlds and in most of the top 50 shoots, there is no other way of doing it without running way into the night with the shoot-offs.

DLM
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If we are shooting-off concurrents, but long-running classes, does not that suggest we now consider concurrent events, and their points, to be more important than class competition?
 

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Jim Miller said:
If the purpose of a shoot-off is to see who can hit the most targets before missing, why is it miss-and-out by station and not by bird?
Jim,
Doubles are a different animal than singles. The reason it isn't miss and out by bird is it keeps people from shooting targets as singles in certain situations.

It prevents someone who shoots second in a shoot-off from shooting the first target as a single if the person he is shooting off against misses the first target but breaks the second.
 
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Baron23 said:
I disagree. Skeet is a game of posting the most dead bird and the least lost birds within the event
I disagree. The regular game is every bit equally as much about a means of discriminating who shoots off and who does not. Shootoffs are all about long runs from the front.
And long runs as a discriminator for regular skeet scores are cut from the same cloth.

Edit: My point being, neither longrun nor doubles from 3, 4 and 5 has a claim to legitimacy as a best tie breaker for regular skeet. They are what they are. A means.

Mike
 

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I vote for all shoot offs being fair pair in the air at 3-4-5.

Just getting into a shoot off is great.

I want it fair to hitting both birds to win.

(what sucks is getting into 2 shoot offs and losing both on the second station like I did last Sat)

Hit them all...
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og kush plant
 

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CPXSSKEET said:
I vote for all shoot offs being fair pair in the air at 3-4-5.
I'd go along with that under certain conditions. First, NSSA would have to put it into the rules. And second, the rule should be like the gun or ammo malfunction. If the first bird is hit but the second is irregular, "nothing established". If the first bird is missed, it's "lost" regardless. There shouldn't be any free passes after a missed shot.

Kensington
 
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