Clays vs. Red Dot
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Tom, they aren't alot different. Most difference to you would be the bulk of RD, clays takes up less room. That is good and bad for some loads----some light stuff you need the bulk, some not, to fill the shell as need be.
Personally, I would use availability and price as the factor. Both fast burners, Clays is a little cleaner, the last RD I had and had it stoked up was pretty darned clean. I'm about to decide it doesn't make that much difference anyway, have to clean them eventually and I've never cleaned mine after using a "clean" powder that really impressed me with the residue-----dirty is dirty :wink:
Personally, I would use availability and price as the factor. Both fast burners, Clays is a little cleaner, the last RD I had and had it stoked up was pretty darned clean. I'm about to decide it doesn't make that much difference anyway, have to clean them eventually and I've never cleaned mine after using a "clean" powder that really impressed me with the residue-----dirty is dirty :wink:
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TT-
Thanks for the input. Ordering from Recob's, Clays is $6 more than RD in 8# jugs...a strike against it (since there are no local sources for reasonable prices). Looking at load data, I have yet to find any significant advantage of one powder over the other and cleanliness isn't that big a deal to me (except that my kid's hand gets really grubby from feeding his 1100).
Here's my main reason for asking about this:
Right now, with 17.0 gr RedDot, I don't always get good, non-protruding, crimps on AA (and the cheap Remington) hulls dropping 1 oz. of shot into Green Duster wads. My solution to this has been to use Blue Dusters in these hulls or the Greens for 7/8 oz loads.
(Right now, 90+% of our loads are 1oz, and since I order nearly all my components, I'm trying to simplify. Also, I get excellent results with Greens in STS and Nitro hulls.)
Is Clays enough less bulky that I could stick with the Greens/AA/1 oz combination and produce a well crimped shell? If so, should I also expect dished-in STS's and Nitro's?
Thanks for the input. Ordering from Recob's, Clays is $6 more than RD in 8# jugs...a strike against it (since there are no local sources for reasonable prices). Looking at load data, I have yet to find any significant advantage of one powder over the other and cleanliness isn't that big a deal to me (except that my kid's hand gets really grubby from feeding his 1100).
Here's my main reason for asking about this:
Right now, with 17.0 gr RedDot, I don't always get good, non-protruding, crimps on AA (and the cheap Remington) hulls dropping 1 oz. of shot into Green Duster wads. My solution to this has been to use Blue Dusters in these hulls or the Greens for 7/8 oz loads.
(Right now, 90+% of our loads are 1oz, and since I order nearly all my components, I'm trying to simplify. Also, I get excellent results with Greens in STS and Nitro hulls.)
Is Clays enough less bulky that I could stick with the Greens/AA/1 oz combination and produce a well crimped shell? If so, should I also expect dished-in STS's and Nitro's?
..........and one of the reasons I use Blues instead of Greens as well, only thing is the blues pattern tighter in my gun that do the greens----no problem except in skeet where you might want a more open pattern.
I can't say I notice any difference in volume between the STS and promo hull, I load them right along side each other and the crimps are identical.
Using blues as a constant, there is one row of #8 shot difference in final height between Clays and RD powder for the same velocity-----if that makes sense----or right at .090",
I can't say I notice any difference in volume between the STS and promo hull, I load them right along side each other and the crimps are identical.
Using blues as a constant, there is one row of #8 shot difference in final height between Clays and RD powder for the same velocity-----if that makes sense----or right at .090",
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TOM-M...are you loading on a MEC? I was wondering what bushing you useing that drops 17grns? I'm dropping 18.2 of RD on my machine which is a #32 bushing and dont have any problems with crimps and 1oz loads. I dont run into crimp issues until I get into my heavier loads which are 21.5-22 grns of GreenDot which are a #35 and #36 bushing.
Tim
Tim
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Sizemaster. Using a universal charge bar. Weights are spot on averaged over several drops according to my el cheapo, digital, scale.TReX300 said:
I should have added, but didn't, not having problems with the cheap Remingtons until about the 5th or 6th reload...the plastic has probably had it by then anyway.
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Hi Tom
I use CLAYS in Remington hulls. My 1 oz loads are:
16.2 g clays ( a nice light load power is not so clean here)
18.2 g clays ( a little over 1200 fps and very clean)
I use TGT12s wads and CB1100 and wind jammer wads
I have great crimps on all
A suggestion on power I like to use what I can get close to home.
I use CLAYS in Remington hulls. My 1 oz loads are:
16.2 g clays ( a nice light load power is not so clean here)
18.2 g clays ( a little over 1200 fps and very clean)
I use TGT12s wads and CB1100 and wind jammer wads
I have great crimps on all
A suggestion on power I like to use what I can get close to home.
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1,384 Posts
I use Red Dot exclusively. IT'S AMERICAN MADE which means something to me. 
I use a MEC Grabber and like TReX300 use a #32 bushing which drops around 18.2-18.4 grains. I also use Green duster wads for both 1 oz and 7/8 oz loads with #8 shot and have great crimps (the 7/8 are a little indented but not enough to cause a problem, IMHO) This is with AA's or STS and several other Remington hulls.
I shoot only trap and am happy with this combo from that prospective with these loads from the 16-20 yd line, after that or shooting doubles I load something a little hotter.
The price difference between Clays and Red Dot is not my first priority, I just prefer the American products first.
Happy shooting......................Levi
I use a MEC Grabber and like TReX300 use a #32 bushing which drops around 18.2-18.4 grains. I also use Green duster wads for both 1 oz and 7/8 oz loads with #8 shot and have great crimps (the 7/8 are a little indented but not enough to cause a problem, IMHO) This is with AA's or STS and several other Remington hulls.
I shoot only trap and am happy with this combo from that prospective with these loads from the 16-20 yd line, after that or shooting doubles I load something a little hotter.
The price difference between Clays and Red Dot is not my first priority, I just prefer the American products first.
Happy shooting......................Levi
I think all of the fast powders work well enough. Other than price, the things that matter to me are the number of loads I can find for the powders and the fit (crimp) that results from the load I want to use. I usually shoot 2-3/4 DE for 1-1/8 oz loads.
The other things that may matter are the ability of the reloading machine to throw safe loads and clean burning. I gave up on 700X a long time ago, largely because I couldn't get my MEC to throw the charge I wanted within a small error range. It is nice to see a clean barrel, but it doesn't matter at all, if you are shooting to break the targets and not to admire the inside of the fired barrel.
Right now, I shoot Solo 1000 the most, but load some Clays and some Red Dot. I like the Solo because it has a high energy density (meaning that the charge volume is low), so it happens to give me nice crimps. I require Red Dot for handguns (love it for some .38 and .357 M loads), so I use it when I can't find good data for Solo 1000. I have shot many kegs of Clays and only moved away from it because I discovered that the Solo 1000 fit better in AA hulls.
The other things that may matter are the ability of the reloading machine to throw safe loads and clean burning. I gave up on 700X a long time ago, largely because I couldn't get my MEC to throw the charge I wanted within a small error range. It is nice to see a clean barrel, but it doesn't matter at all, if you are shooting to break the targets and not to admire the inside of the fired barrel.
Right now, I shoot Solo 1000 the most, but load some Clays and some Red Dot. I like the Solo because it has a high energy density (meaning that the charge volume is low), so it happens to give me nice crimps. I require Red Dot for handguns (love it for some .38 and .357 M loads), so I use it when I can't find good data for Solo 1000. I have shot many kegs of Clays and only moved away from it because I discovered that the Solo 1000 fit better in AA hulls.
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Tom,
I've studied the question of which powder to use for most of my 12 gauge reloading on several occasions. Based on MY criteria of flexibility to load light to moderate loads at various velocities (mostly on the LOWER end of the velocity scale), I haven't found anything to equal Clays powder.
Sometimes I want to load 7/8 ounce, sometimes 1 ounce, and even occasionally a slow/moderate velocity 1 1/8 ounce load. When you factor in the flexibility of one powder to do it all for what I'm looking for, Clays just can't be beat. Yes, some powders may be cheaper, and some may be more patriotic, and some may be better if you like loading heavy, fast loads, but for light to moderate loads at moderate velocities in Win AA or Rem STS hulls, I haven't found ANY powder that will equal Clays.
I've studied the question of which powder to use for most of my 12 gauge reloading on several occasions. Based on MY criteria of flexibility to load light to moderate loads at various velocities (mostly on the LOWER end of the velocity scale), I haven't found anything to equal Clays powder.
Sometimes I want to load 7/8 ounce, sometimes 1 ounce, and even occasionally a slow/moderate velocity 1 1/8 ounce load. When you factor in the flexibility of one powder to do it all for what I'm looking for, Clays just can't be beat. Yes, some powders may be cheaper, and some may be more patriotic, and some may be better if you like loading heavy, fast loads, but for light to moderate loads at moderate velocities in Win AA or Rem STS hulls, I haven't found ANY powder that will equal Clays.
I was loading 700X back in the 60s and 70s. At the time, I became uncomfortable that I could not keep the charge below the point given in the reloading manuals, unless I backed off from the stated charge by a good bit. I measured a lot of loads and simply found too much + and - on the scale (with my machine). Today I might not be as concerned over it. I don't know for sure, since I gave up on 700X so long ago. It was a clean burning powder and I was probably a bit too scared of it.claysman said:
Clays and Solo 1000 are both flake and look about the same (size) as 700X. Solo is considerably more dense. I used to load Winchester Super Light when I wanted a dense powder. It was a ball powder and had the highest energy density of any fast powder I have seen. Then, as you probably know, they quit making it. Right now, I find that Tightwad has a rather high energy density and is very fast.
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That's correct! Clays is not only more versatile, but it is usually cheaper too. For example, in the Win AA hulls, loading 7/8 ounce of shot, E3 has a velocity range of 1200 fps to 1300 fps, while Clays has a range of 1200 fps to 1350 fps. Therefore, Clays is more versatile.UltraMag said:
Also, in the 1 ounce loads using Win AA hulls, E3 has a velocity range of 1150 fps to 1290 fps, while Clays has a range of 1125 fps to 1290 fps. Again, Clays is more versatile.
In the 1 1/8 ounce loads, both powders have the same velocity range of 1090 fps to 1200 fps.
So there you have it! Clays is more versatile and cheaper than E3. Although I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, I think you will see similar differences between Clays and Red Dot, again with the edge going to Clays. As I said, I've sliced it and diced it numerous times over the past 7 or 8 years and haven't found a powder as versatile and easy to use as Clays. If anyone knows of a more versatile powder in the velocity ranges I've indicated, let me know and I'll check it out.
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All your saying is the load data has a broader range, that has nothing to do with the versatility of the powder.Ulysses said:
If you look at the 1300fps loads in Alliants E3 data, they're only running 8300 to 8700 PSI, you could easily get 1350fps with E3 in 7/8oz, no problem, you could also go slower than the data if you want, all you need is a chronograph, your lucky if your getting the posted velocities in load data anyway, a chronograph is a good idea irregardless.
As for more expensive,
Clays requires approx 18.0 grs to get 1200fps in a 1oz load,
E3 only requires 16.5grs to get the same velocity.
Clays 18.0 grs
Loads per 8lb cannister : 3111
E3 16.5 grs
Loads per 8lb cannister : 3393
that's roughly a $9-$10 difference in 8lbs of powder,in other words, E3 costing $9-$10 more for 8lbs would cost the same per load as Clays.
Recob's Target shop:
Clays $97
E3 $100
hmm??
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