[Notch15]

re: Gil Ash, these statements are factually in error
Center Vision and Weak Eye Dominance
When you close an eye you do lose depth perception but more importantly your perceived lead will double or even triple.
A two eyed lead is as much as half or more LESS than a one eyed lead.
When we take shooters from one eyed to two once they understand the sight picture and can replicate it we tell them to cut their lead in half and they are instantly successful!!
The targets seem 1/3 smaller and 35% faster with one eye than with two eyes.
Dominance shifts are most often caused by shooters trying to be perfect in the set up by double checking the muzzle placement in the hold point.


Binocular summation refers to the improved visual performance of binocular vision compared to that of monocular vision.
Improvement has been well established in brightness perception, flicker perception, contrast sensitivity, peripheral visual field, response time, and visual acuity - by about 11%
Some people may perceive a difference in size and speed of a moving object two vs. one eye; but like visual acuity from binocular summation, the difference is no more than about 10%.

"The targets seem 1/3 smaller and 35% faster with one eye than with two eyes."

Source?

 

[Notch15]

I am missing something.....I understand what Drew Hause has explained.....but what does the OP's post have to do with eye dominance?

You shouldn't be moving your eyes only when you shoot, because then the shotgun isn't where it's supposed to be.

I get it, eyes before gun movement, but once you see the target the gun has to be moving with the eyes or you aren't going to be shooting where you are looking. To make the gun and eyes move together, the gun, eyes, head, shoulders etc. all have to be locked together. You aren't moving your eyeballs around, at least you better not be.

"...but once you see the target the gun has to be moving with the eyes or you aren't going to be shooting where you are looking."

The gun shoots where it is pointed. If you focus on a target that requires lead then the gun isn't shooting where you're looking.

 

[Notch15]

Ya know, the brain is a marvelous computer. Think about an outfielder. The batter hits the ball and the outfielder almost immediately starts running to the point where that ball is going to come down. While he is running and tracking the ball with his eyes, the brain is calculating the ball's trajectory and modifying the running path to intercept the ball's trajectory when it will be about 6 feet of the ground. This is al based on the brain learning from past experiences of the thousand's of fly balls that player has caught over the year and then applying that to the data coming from the player's eyes for the one in the air.

Our eyes do the same thing with a clay target. While our brain can recognize a particular target presentation, it still has to get correct tacking data from the eyes to correctly apply that learned knowledge to that particular target.

Oh, I know that accurate tracking data is imperative. That's why accurate peripheral vision is important.

My comment on "shoots where you look" is simply clarifying reality.

 

[Notch15]

Given that I am 52, have been dealing with the issue since I was in my 20's, and my dominance changes depending on how tired my eyes are...
Trying harder doesn't work and just increases stress. Would advise the person in your example to relax and have their Rx checked - then go back to shooting low-gun straightaways with both eyes open, working back up through the various sight pictures. For me, low gun is the key as it allows me to fix the target's presentation and prevents occlusion until the last moment.

1. Dominance. Which eye has better visual acuity? The eye with the clearest image will be dominant.
2. Tracking. Muscular control of eyeball (Right Eye).
3. Location Prediction. Neurological based on input data. Predicting location is different from dominance/tracking. Strobing LCD lenses are one training tool that can help your brain with predictive tracking: Strobe Sport Training Glasses - Improves Reaction Time,Focus

Or just occlude one eye. When I did this i started shooting better within a few practice sessions.

 

[Notch15]

There is a provider within 3 miles of my house, I'll give them a call and get the low down. If not prohibitive expensive, I'll give it a shot.

Please keep us posted on what you learn.

 

[Notch15]

Unfortunately for some Fox, the Orbicularis oculi (the muscle that shuts the eye) is bilaterally innervated by branches of the facial nerve (cranial nerve VII) so many of us can not close one eye without involuntarily squinting the other eye, with significant distortion of the vision.

Do you use some sort of blocker over your non-dominate eye?

 

[Notch15]

Notch: happy to share, but my experience most certainly may not reflect the experience of others.
Part of my problem was that my dominance could shift several times in one round of skeet or trap, but esp. with L to R targets. And I clearly see 2 golfers rather than the one on the tee outside our fence about 30 yards away.
Blinking my L (off) eye distorted by R eye vision.
A "bead blocker" just attracted by L eye. No (Ralph) I was not "bead checking".
A tiny occlusive dot exactly in front of my pupil worked at first
View attachment 76217

but then didn't, and trying larger dots or total occlusion attracted by L eye to the point that all I could "see" was the back of the occlusive If I shut my L eye and stared intensely at something with my R I could shift dominance back.

After 3 frustrating years of this, I now shoot both eyes open again, and somehow have unconsciously adjusted the leads when shooting low gun recreational skeet. Trap is still a mess, but with my hopeless flinch and previous TBIs I've mostly given up.

Thanks.

Eye issues can be complicated; a one size fits all approach to fixing one's problem(s) is not the answer.

My translucent 12mm blocking circle on the left lens of my shooting glasses has worked for me.

 

[Notch15]

Yes, sometimes a translucent or opaque spot on the opposite eye lense can help, but if you are a right hander, when you look hard left the curvature of the eye can change perspective on the line of sight.
Sometimes when I'm shooting doubles, or True-pairs I wish I had eyes like a lizard, but darn it, I can still only shoot one target at a time!
Mike

"...when you look hard left..."

I try to never do that.

 

[Notch15]

You guys can beat a topic to death….Dominance will never impact your shooting or batting unless you aim. I don’t know any MLB players that aim. 1) How do you aim a bat? 2) I know how to aim a shotgun…don’t do it point it! This goes back to occlusion, I have never seen a MLB player occlude his dominant eye. Same goes for the best shotgunners too. I have decided most folks who want to be relevant can’t handle the truth!!

I don't see any similarities between shooting a shotgun and playing baseball. The last time I shot clays none were thrown directly at me where I had to wait to catch them, or thrown within feet of me where I had to physically hit it with my shotgun.

There can be eye dominance issues associated with your peripheral vision. Baseball players don't use their peripheral vision to catch or hit a baseball.

 

[Notch15]

Both visual sports unless Im missing something. I am right handed and left eye dominate and cataract getting bad in right eye. Use all the vision God has bless’d you with men and make the best of it and I promise you will break more targets and have more fun if you peel all the do-dads off your glasses and learn to mount and point your gun consistently.
You can occlude and its a quick fix for an aimer, however to max out your potential in any shotgun sport with moving targets you must point!

"Both visual sports unless Im missing something."

So all visual sports (what's not a visual sport??) are directly related to shooting clays?

 

[Notch15]

Both visual sports unless Im missing something. I am right handed and left eye dominate and cataract getting bad in right eye. Use all the vision God has bless’d you with men and make the best of it and I promise you will break more targets and have more fun if you peel all the do-dads off your glasses and learn to mount and point your gun consistently.
You can occlude and its a quick fix for an aimer, however to max out your potential in any shotgun sport with moving targets you must point!

I wasn't (and still am not) an aimer, and my occlusion spot has made a big difference.

 

[Notch15]

Jim and Notch,
A willingness to be taught and learn outside your comfort zone or abilitiy of all YOU believe to be true is really all the debate is here.
Div 1 baseball players are great ball players….however they don’t move up to MLB if they can’t be taught more.
My point is if you are not willing to listen you will keep believing only what you and others like you only know.
Bayne

I did listen and learn. I shot without a Shotspot or winking down my off eye my entire life, both eyes open and solidly right eyed dominate...until I aged. As I got older I developed vision issues. I studied and learned that a Shotspot was the answer. I successfully worked my vision issues and shoot much better now.

 

[Notch15]

One thing that has struck me over the years is how many great shooters had fathers who were great shooters. It is not genetic, it is the fact that the fathers started their kids out shooting the right way from Day One, so that every shell fired after that was making the kid better.

If shooting extremely well were simply a matter of experimenting, finding what "feels natural," or "what works best for you," the Derrick Meins and Kayle Brownings of the world would have a lot more competition.

Learning to shoot a shotgun well is the least intuitive endeavor I believe I have ever encountered. It is also the least understood by the great mass of its practitioners.

That provides gimmick and snake oil salesmen an open door, but there really is no shortcut.

There is no one "right way."

 

[Notch15]

You misunderstood. In order to point, you have to disconnect your eyes from the rib. That is exactly what I said. Why you have the ability to know exactly where the gun is aimed but choose to point it where you are not looking is a mystery to me, but it seems to work for a lot if people.

Do you look at the lead?

(I'm not judging, just interested.)

 

[Notch15]

I use one eye and aim the gun at the target plus estimated lead. It is so damned simple I can't imagine doing it any other way. (There may be drawbacks, but shooting with only one eye eliminates all the vision problems that plague two eye open shooters.) As a scientist it is the only way to shoot that makes any sense to me. No mystique! I have been shooting about four years and recently have made it into the 70-80% range on Westside's hard course when it is toned down a bit. What works for me is that I understand completely what I am doing and can use that understanding to teach myself to improve. That makes it all worthwhile. Teaching myself provides a huge sense of accomplishment. If I had the least amount of eye-hand coordination and large motor consistency, I'm sure I could be a crack shot. Sadly, that is not the case. Fortunately the fun isn't affected.

Thanks.

Where is your vision at the trigger point on a target that requires lead? Is it in space ahead of the target at the estimated required lead, with the target consciously in your peripheral vision?

 

[Notch15]

Please don’t muddy the water for these guy’s….It is impossible to look at space in front of a target and be successful hitting it consistently.

The terms used are important.

 

[Notch15]

Yes and no. Since I am locked onto the rib, right down it with my one open eye, I am looking hard at the place I expect the target to intersect the shot. That is my true center vision. But I wouldn't say the clay is in my peripheral vision. Suppose you are shooting a long crossing target at a distance of 60 yards or 180 ft and the required lead on top of your swing speed is 10 ft. That 10 feet of separation between the target and the expected intersection point is only 3.2 degrees of a circle. Surely both the target and the intersection or aim point can both be considered to be in the center off one's field of vision If only 3.2 degrees apart. See my point?

Central vision being five degrees?

 

[Notch15]

Different sources quote different numbers and this is surely not my forte. But I just saw numbers like 30, 50, and 60 degrees given for central vision. Whatever 3 must be pretty central.

I've seen foveal vision listed between two and five degrees. That's a total, so it's half of that on either side of center. So in the best case (five degrees), your crossing example would mean that if you're focused on the clay with the dead center of your vision then it's only 2.5 degrees to the edge of your foveal vision.

 

[Notch15]

Can we please not make this discussion personal?

 

[Notch15]

And of course, it likely differs for many, but your earlier description works well.

Thanks.