Thanks Joe, a lot of work and I'm sure many will be interested in this because these shells are more available but It's kinda like Neil Winston would say, not a significant difference in them. I would have thought that the Estate Super Sport to be No. 1 by 4-5 percentage points. Once again, it's the science.

 

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

You're telling me there's 130 more pellets (and nearly .1oz more weight) in the Fed than the Win?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

 

For the record I emailed Winchester and ask the difference between super target and universal they said same product different package .

Also did same with federal with filed and clays vs top gun . They said the same product different packaging.

People here argue and say there's a difference.

Nice job on the comparison.

 

softer pellets will always have fewer per ounce.

 

softer pellets will always have fewer per ounce.

Well sure, but the Fed shells also just had a larger (weight) charge to begin with.
The Feds are 4% Sb.

 

For the record I emailed Winchester and ask the difference between super target and universal they said same product different package .

Also did same with federal with filed and clays vs top gun . They said the same product different packaging.

People here argue and say there's a difference.
.

I was skeptical at first.. but now I tend to believe Winchester.

I had some white box super targets. Couldn't hit crap.

I upgraded to some AA's... still couldn't hit crap

Just to be sure... I shot some Federals... still... didn't hit crap!

I think all those shells suffer from the same defect... :shock:

 

Now the AA are different. Better lead and hull for sure .

 

Your reloads bested the bargain shells by a couple % points, equaled the Gun Clubs, and trailed the premium stuff by 3-6%, not bad. So basically not a lot of difference between any of them. I'll bet it took a long time to do all that testing, great job, and thanks for the work.

cdb

 

That information is intellectually interesting and I know you spent a lot of time compiling it.

But as a practical matter, I do not think it matters much. I believe that that any commercially sold ammunition from any known ammunition maker is as good as the best shooters are.

In any event, any commercial ammo with the same specs on the box will produce the same results for 99.9% of all shotgun shooters .

 

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

You're telling me there's 130 more pellets (and nearly .1oz more weight) in the Fed than the Win?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

I think it was a typo. Joe likely meant 386 pellets per shell, not 486.

 

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

You're telling me there's 130 more pellets (and nearly .1oz more weight) in the Fed than the Win?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

I think it was a typo. Joe likely meant 386 pellets per shell, not 486.

I'd agree.... If it wasn't for the shot charge weights.
The Fed is a good bit heavier.

 

In Dr. A C Jones book "Sporting Shotgun Performance" where he tested thousands of patterns he pretty much puts the hard shot/soft shot thing to rest. When testing hard vs soft through tight chokes basically the biggest difference was 4.5 yds. That's to say the pattern size of the most open soft shot pattern at 40yds was duplicated by the best hard shot pattern at 44.5 yds and many overlaps in between. So if you're a top Intl trap or AA 27yd guy it might matter, for most sporting clays shooters not so much. Bruce Buck made a statement that until you run out of choke, promo ammo is as good as the premium. I just happily plug along with 1150-1200fps and whatever shot or shells I can get.

 

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

You're telling me there's 130 more pellets (and nearly .1oz more weight) in the Fed than the Win?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

I think it was a typo. Joe likely meant 386 pellets per shell, not 486.

I'd agree.... If it wasn't for the shot charge weights.
The Fed is a good bit heavier.

sanders -- Yes, I'm reporting my findings to you. I'm just the messenger, so you can be the judge!

No typo fellas!

I did 5 in-shell pellet counts (see the data) and that's what they were. If I had miss counted one or two it would have shown discrepancies with the others.

Smaller pellets + larger payload = more pellets in the payload!

You can decide if that's good or bad!

 

Looking at the mean diameter of the pellets in the Federal shells they are essentially #8 shot that apparently was marked and packaged as 7 1/2 shot. Perhaps there was an error during production.

 

I think shot diameter Will vary from lot to lot.
Also probably plus or minus .003 to .005 on tolerance

 

Thanks very much for your efforts, Joe. I love looking at these kinds of tests.

 

40 YARDS / FULL CHOKE PATTERNS
5-shot mean and 30" pattern totals w/ same gun and Full choke as above

Rem Gun Club 2 ¾" 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (375 pellets) / pattern 272 (73%)
Rem Premier STS 2 ¾" 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (408 pellets) / pattern 321 (79%)
Rem Premier Nitro 2 ¾" 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (420 pellets) / pattern 321 (76%)

That's the difference between cheap loads and the cheap stuff: 321 pellets on your target vs. 272.

That's 18% more pattern on the paper.

 

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

You're telling me there's 130 more pellets (and nearly .1oz more weight) in the Fed than the Win?

Wouldn't have guessed that.

I think it was a typo. Joe likely meant 386 pellets per shell, not 486.

I'd agree.... If it wasn't for the shot charge weights.
The Fed is a good bit heavier.

sanders -- Yes, I'm reporting my findings to you. I'm just the messenger, so you can be the judge!

No typo fellas!

I did 5 in-shell pellet counts (see the data) and that's what they were. If I had miss counted one or two it would have shown discrepancies with the others.

Smaller pellets + larger payload = more pellets in the payload!

You can decide if that's good or bad![/quote]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulysses' comment:

If it wasn't a typo, then clearly it was a situation of mismarked shells. Just because the box and the shell SAYS that it's 1 1/8 ounce of #7.5 shot doesn't necessarily mean that's what's actually inside the shell.

I've run into that same type situation numerous times with mismarked shells. Sometimes the shot size is larger (or smaller) than what's marked on the box. Also, sometimes the weight is lighter or heavier than what's marked on the box.

So, when we run into this type situation, then it is meaningless to try to draw any conclusions about pattern comparisons between shells from one brand to another because we are not comparing apples to apples. We're comparing REAL #7.5 shells with other shells that may be marked as #7.5 but are actually much closer to #8 in size.

And, as I've said on many occasions, we don't really know what's inside the shells in a box/flat unless we cut open and weigh/count a few samples. Generally, shells are pretty consistent from box to box inside a flat so it's not necessary to cut open a shell from every box.

EDIT: Sorry about the messed up "quotes" portion above, but I think everyone can figure out who said what.

 

While there's a real difference in shot size with the Federal shells, it's not the shells that are causing your misses.
Any of these promo loads are perfectly adequate for most shooter's abilities.

 

Just a few thoughts...
1) The pellets in the Federal shell are closer to a #8 pellet. That's not unusual in cheap loads with shot size tolerances being what they are. I also saw that in an Estate 1 oz load that I did a report on.
2) If you don't open and count or measure you don't really know what's in them.
3) I don't think they are "mis-marked" ammo or an "error in production". They are within tolerances and that's good enough to the ammo company for cheap loads.
4) If you don't pattern your ammo through your barrel/choke, you don't really know what kind of performance you're getting!
5) Does all this number crunching stuff it really matter? Well, that's for you to decide! And of course, if you can't put the pattern on the bird it doesn't matter!

So, why do all this number crunching?

Well, some think I'm crazy and they're probably right, but I enjoy the endeavor. I like knowing how the ammo I use performs, so when I'm shooting targets or hunting I'm not thinking about the ammo, I'm focusing on making the shot!

Good luck!

 

While there's a real difference in shot size with the Federal shells, it's not the shells that are causing your misses.
Any of these promo loads are perfectly adequate for most shooter's abilities.

And for folks like me and probably a whole lot of others who don't shoot competitively, price is the most important factor. I'm nowhere good enough to ever determine that Win AA loads will break more clays than Universals.

If I get hooked and start getting serious about competing in matches, then info like this becomes more useful and might be more relevant.

Seems to me this is like the silly games truck makers do with their ads - our truck has 3.267 more HP and 6.132 more ft-lbs of torque than the other guy....not that it will ever make any difference in your life, but it might make us a few bucks if you buy our truck instead of theirs because of those numbers.

 

While there's a real difference in shot size with the Federal shells, it's not the shells that are causing your misses.
Any of these promo loads are perfectly adequate for most shooter's abilities.

Who on this thread is complaining about missing, and how would you know why Joe Hunter (or anyone else) misses?

Better shells are better for 100% of shooters and hunters. The 18-20 % gain in pattern is sometimes better than changing chokes. Who would say chokes don't matter? There is no such thing as any barrel or choke brand that patterns 18% more efficiently than anything else.

You can waste your money on choke tubes, over-boring, back-boring, porting, etc., and you won't find much of anything . . . you will not find 18% anywhere. The 18% is hugely significant, for a premium 1 oz. load can handily outperform a promo 1-1/8 oz. load and another guarantee is that you will have less recoil . . . another thing folks like to obsess about.

 

While there's a real difference in shot size with the Federal shells, it's not the shells that are causing your misses.
Any of these promo loads are perfectly adequate for most shooter's abilities.

But that's a reference to pattern quality. I don't care how great the pattern looks, if the shot size is too small to reliably break targets at distance, then you're going to get disappointing results with the too small shot size. Your score is based on how many targets you BREAK, not on how many you hit. If the hit doesn't produce a "visible piece" off the target, then it's the same as a miss.

 

40 YARD PATTERNS (Full choke / .036" constriction)
30" pattern totals (%)

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

241

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

380

We should all be astonished that a Winchester cheap load has put 241 pellets on the paper, while a Federal cheap load has put 380 . . . 57% more pellets from ostensibly the same load. If that isn't a meaningful difference to someone, then what is?

 

40 YARD PATTERNS (Full choke / .036" constriction)
30" pattern totals (%)

12 GA 2 ¾" WINCHESTER UNIVERSAL LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (356 pellets) @ 1200 fps

241

12 GA 2 ¾" FEDERAL FIELD & TARGET LOAD
1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (486 pellets) @ 1200 fps

380

We should all be astonished that a Winchester cheap load has put 241 pellets on the paper, while a Federal cheap load has put 380 . . . 57% more pellets from ostensibly the same load. If that isn't a meaningful difference to someone, then what is?

I noticed that. So... the cheap federals perform better than the cheap winchesters. I totally believe that. The winchesters wouldn't cycle the action in my semi-auto during the break in period

I would assume that preminum sheels (AA's?) would be better. Unfortunately, its a severe understatement to say that there are limited ammo choices these days. You may have to take what you get and choke up accordingly.

I am primarily a reloader these days. I reload AA's and GC's that I feed into my o/u. I also reload cheap fiocchi hulls (or whatever I pull out the dumpster) that I let my niece shoot because she hasn't mastered the art of saving my good hulls. Also good for the semi-auto

I need to probably visit the pattern board one day and analyze my own ammo.