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You guys sure are entertaining. Argue all the time about which buckshot is going to kill somebody deader. Now you got guys talking about using their home defense gun as a hostige rescue magic wand. Any of you guys sleep in body armor or bring your shotguns into the shower with you?
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
You guys sure are entertaining. Argue all the time about which buckshot is going to kill somebody deader. Now you got guys talking about using their home defense gun as a hostige rescue magic wand. Any of you guys sleep in body armor or bring your shotguns into the shower with you?
Sorry, sometimes our discussions make the sheep a little nervous.
 
Mr. Wakeman, the source for my post is Rochelle Poore, and you might misunderstand Mr. Billing's involvement with FC. I have posted at length here about him, and 1999 was just the year that his patent was filed. The release year of FliteControl to turkey hunters was 2005, and Rochelle Poore says that her team developed Tactical FC 00 buckshot before the two Mag-Shok turkey loads.

Guns Magazine said:
A shotshell-is-a-shotshell-is-a-shotshell. No it's not! Wait until you fire some of Federal's innovative new shells, it's one thing to annually tweak the shot charge by a few micro-ounces or to step up the muzzle velocity a bit, but when you completely redesign the traditional components that go into a shotshell, it's a revolution.

Federal has done just that. For 2005, Federal is bringing us ...a new concentrator wad, and a new smoothbore slug [ETA: TruBall] that shoots like a rifle bullet. And, guys, the lady in charge of these exciting innovations is Federal's Shotshell Development Engineer. Rochelle Poore. Yes, she's a hunter. Yes, she's good looking. Yes, she's married. And believe me, as a graduate mechanical engineer, she can walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk. -- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_51/ai_n13469621
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
You guys sure are entertaining. Argue all the time about which buckshot is going to kill somebody deader. Now you got guys talking about using their home defense gun as a hostige rescue magic wand. Any of you guys sleep in body armor or bring your shotguns into the shower with you?
Nobody said that. Now run along. Serious people talking about serious stuff here.

Besides, my Glock tolerates the shower steam better than my shotgun, and hides under the towel.

liljake82 said:
Sorry, sometimes our discussions make the sheep a little nervous.
:lol:

Ain't it the truth.
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
What's this sheep stuff about? Ain't like you guys are a bunch of renegades.

All I see is guys way over thinking simple things. You shoot somebody (good hit) with buckshot(any kind) inside your house you'll win the fight.
Your generalization is mostly true.

However, "shooting someone and making a good hit" isn't so easy when they are shooting back at you. Some of us believe that training in the defensive use of the shotgun is worthwhile for those that might want to use it. And that includes choosing the best ammunition available.

Do as seems best to you. :)
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
I can agree with that. Also your point of why not use the best available is valid but some guys act like the flitecontrol loads are so superior that they are really the only choice. Over thinking is what it is. It's pretty simple.
Nope, TAP uses the same wad.
 
liljake82 said:
wisturkeyhunter said:
I can agree with that. Also your point of why not use the best available is valid but some guys act like the flitecontrol loads are so superior that they are really the only choice. Over thinking is what it is. It's pretty simple.
Nope, TAP uses the same wad.
As does Speer Lawman, so, what, 3 choices to get it right? :D
 
Racked 870 said:
liljake82 said:
wisturkeyhunter said:
I can agree with that. Also your point of why not use the best available is valid but some guys act like the flitecontrol loads are so superior that they are really the only choice. Over thinking is what it is. It's pretty simple.
Nope, TAP uses the same wad.
As does Speer Lawman, so, what, 3 choices to get it right? :D
Nope, only two choices. Speer Lawman is owned by ATK and the Speer Lawman #57800 is an 8-pellet shell w/FliteControl. It is identical to the Federal LE133 00 load.
 
One more point. No responsible defender can even fire a 00 buckshot load that patterns say 20" @ XYZ yards at a BG beyond XYZ yards, unless he knows that no other person is beyond his BG target. While a responsible defender may be willing to destroy replaceable objects, he should never even point the muzzle at, much less pull the trigger, when an innocent person is beyond (or even near) a BG target at XYZ range. He is responsible for each pellet that he fires. Federal's goal with FC is to make XYZ a bigger number. Why risk violating two universal firearm safety rules by assuming a close quarters attack and using obsolete short range 00 buckshot for HD?

It would be very interesting to know the specifics of Mr. Billing's licencing of FC to ATK and Hornady. If the present agreements restrict the lease of the patent to ATK and Hornady, well, too bad for Remington and Winchester, etc. However, it would be foolish if Remington and Winchester, etc., are deliberately not using this wad technology and if it had been offered to them.

A case in point is the Mossberg aluminum receiver.

In 1901 John Moses Browning received U.S. Patent 689,283 for his Browning Auto-5 shotgun, in which he described steel-to-steel, bolt-to-barrel extension lock-up. "As was the custom of the time, Browning's earlier designs had been licensed exclusively to Winchester (and other manufacturers) for a single fee payment. With this new product, Browning introduced in his negotiations a continuous royalty fee based upon unit sales, rather than a single front-end fee payment." Mr. Browning's offer was foolishly rejected by both Winchester Repeating Arms Company and by Remington Arms, but not by the more respectful F. N. Herstal of Belgium. By not licensing the Browning patent, Winchester and Remington had to continue making steel receivers mandated by their bolt-to-receiver lock-up. Mr. Browning's patents eventually expired, but the big manufacturers initially chose to not re-tool and risk upsetting customers who were long accustomed to the older locking designs. Remington finally made the switch in 1951 with the 870. Winchester continued with the Model 12 until it was almost too late competitively, introducing the 1200 in 1964.

Mossberg knew that all of the firing force is handled by a steel-to-steel, bolt-to-barrel extension lock-up, and that an aluminum receiver would only have to transmit recoil. Mossberg has saved production costs since 1961 with their aluminum receivers. Even though Remington also used the bolt-to-barrel extension lock-up ten years earlier with the 870, they continued with the unnecessary steel receivers because of customer expectations. This has given Mossberg a competitive edge in production costs over Remington for over 50 years.

I think that Remington and Winchester could be making the same financial mistake these days by not licensing Mr. Billing's technology as they did over a century ago when they rejected Mr. Browning's offer. These two Utah inventors have made their mark on firearms and ammunition history.
 
NYShooter said:
Racked 870 said:
liljake82 said:
Nope, TAP uses the same wad.
As does Speer Lawman, so, what, 3 choices to get it right? :D
Nope, only two choices. Speer Lawman is owned by ATK and the Speer Lawman #57800 is an 8-pellet shell w/FliteControl. It is identical to the Federal LE133 00 load.
Just to make sure that we maintain a perfect record of arguing every point in this discussion, different box, different brand, different choice.

Honda vs. Acura, Nissan vs. Infinity, Toyota vs. Lexus, Chevy vs. Cadillac, and so on and so on. Essentially they are the same cars when you get down to the nuts and bolts, but wrapped in a different wrapper. That wrapper, marketing, name/brand loyalty, hell, even color of the rounds make it a different choice. Don't say that people won't buy different stuff from each other based on looks or name alone. They made a choice.

There- perfect record maintained.
 
Whole lotta butthurt (and some bad info) in this thread.

Truths:

  • The FBI recommends 12-18" of penetration in prepared ballistic gel (bare) as a basic predictor of projectile terminal performance. This metric has been firmly established by ballisticians.

    These projectile(s) must be delivered into a ~6"x6" target sphere (heart/aorta/vena cava) to cause rapid exsanguination, resulting in loss of blood pressure to the target's brain (i.e. "incapacitation").

    More projectiles reaching this target sphere (i.e. loads with a tight and dense pattern) results in faster exsanguination.

    Recoil impulse will attenuate followup shots, and may affect one's tendency to flinch.

    Pattern size will increase and pattern density will decrease proportionally as distance to the target increases for ALL shotshell loads.

Based on these truths:

Current production, low recoiling, tight patterning #00 buck is most effective at incapacitating a target at a wider variety of ranges.

Future production, low recoiling, tight patterning #1 buck will be more effective than current production, low recoiling, tight patterning #00 buck at incapacitating a target at a wider variety of ranges.

Make your own choice as far as what shotshell you think is good enough to bet your life on. As M24Shooter (I believe) once said; "It's not the odds, it's the stakes".
 
FMD said:
Whole lotta butthurt (and some bad info) in this thread.

Truths:

  • The FBI recommends 12-18" of penetration in prepared ballistic gel (bare) as a basic predictor of projectile terminal performance. This metric has been firmly established by ballisticians.

    These projectile(s) must be delivered into a ~6"x6" target sphere (heart/aorta/vena cava) to cause rapid exsanguination, resulting in loss of blood pressure to the target's brain (i.e. "incapacitation").

    More projectiles reaching this target sphere (i.e. loads with a tight and dense pattern) results in faster exsanguination.

    Recoil impulse will attenuate followup shots, and may affect one's tendency to flinch.

    Pattern size will increase and pattern density will decrease proportionally as distance to the target increases for ALL shotshell loads.

Based on these truths:

Current production, low recoiling, tight patterning #00 buck is most effective at incapacitating a target at a wider variety of ranges.

Future production, low recoiling, tight patterning #1 buck will be more effective than current production, low recoiling, tight patterning #00 buck at incapacitating a target at a wider variety of ranges.

Make your own choice as far as what shotshell you think is good enough to bet your life on. As M24Shooter (I believe) once said; "It's not the odds, it's the stakes/u]".

Geez, do you just have that on a word file that you copy and paste? :lol:
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
What's this sheep stuff about? Ain't like you guys are a bunch of renegades.

All I see is guys way over thinking simple things. You shoot somebody (good hit) with buckshot(any kind) inside your house you'll win the fight.
^^^^^
I'm gonna have to agree with wisturkeyhunter on this one. Most members here probably owns and knows how to use at least one shotgun for HD, so I dont think any one on here is a "sheep", and I don't look into it, but I also surmise that not too many members here are out using shotguns everday to defend themselves or anyone else against life threatening situations on a daily basis. I may not shoot thousands of rounds each month or year either but I would say that almost any 12ga buckshot round would put a BG down for the count.

Alot of members shoot and pattern shotguns a lot more than I do but there is no need for people to be arrogant and have a "higher than thou" attitude. All this "sheep" talk and "letting the serious people do the serious talking" stuff isn't getting us anywhere. We all have an opinion, no ones is better than another unless you have actually use the round to kill another human being and seen the effectiveness first hand. I don't get why all the forums I visit, all the threads turn into "well I know more than anyone else and my opinion is all that matters and everyone else is wrong" kind of thing. Dissapointing.
 
liljake82 said:
Geez, do you just have that on a word file that you copy and paste? :lol:
I typed that one on the fly, but I probably should save it.

Helljumper, some things are not really subject to opinion, rather they are established fact. Debate opinions all you want, but when folks start arguing against fact, it is a pretty quick way to have those opinions, present and future, dismissed out of hand. Take that for what it's worth (and what you paid for it).
 
Helljumper, maybe I jumped on wisturkeyhunter a bit hard but you need to understand how the basement works. Every now and then some orange circle killer or tweety bird hunter decends into the basement to call us all a bunch of mall ninjas and procedes to straighten us out. Many of our members here are military, LEO, and some even skilled firearms instructors. Some of us have spent hours researching internal and external ballistics and done extensive testing on the subject at hand. Now if I had never spent a day in my life researching turkey hunting and went to the turkey hunting forum and posted about how they are all a bunch of Michael Wadell wanabes and 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dreq #7.5's is all you need to kill a turkey what kind of reception do you think I would get? Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when you decide to enter a conversation with people that know what they're talking about be prepared to have your opinion challenged. The point is we don't bust into the skeet shooting forum and tell life long skeet shooters how to shoot skeet. We don't bust into the turkey hunting forum and tell life long turkey hunters how to hunt turkey. Yet we should politely accept the opinions of those that come down here armed with the knowledge bestowed uppon them by the old timer at the gun shop or their uncles buddy who was a cop in BFE back in 1976? Furthermore when you start espousing this knowledge that may or may not be true someone reading just might take it to heart and that person just might end up putting that tidbit of info to the test, and if that info is wrong (and yes there is absolute right and wrong) someone may just end up paying for it with their life. So there ya go, take it FWIW, YMMV, no substitutions exchanges or refunds.
 
FMD said:
Helljumper, some things are not really subject to opinion, rather they are established fact. Debate opinions all you want, but when folks start arguing against fact, it is a pretty quick way to have those opinions, present and future, dismissed out of hand. Take that for what it's worth (and what you paid for it).
liljake82 said:
Helljumper, maybe I jumped on wisturkeyhunter a bit hard but you need to understand how the basement works. Every now and then some orange circle killer or tweety bird hunter decends into the basement to call us all a bunch of mall ninjas and procedes to straighten us out. Many of our members here are military, LEO, and some even skilled firearms instructors. Some of us have spent hours researching internal and external ballistics and done extensive testing on the subject at hand. Now if I had never spent a day in my life researching turkey hunting and went to the turkey hunting forum and posted about how they are all a bunch of Michael Wadell wanabes and 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dreq #7.5's is all you need to kill a turkey what kind of reception do you think I would get? Everyone is entitled to their opinion but when you decide to enter a conversation with people that know what they're talking about be prepared to have your opinion challenged. The point is we don't bust into the skeet shooting forum and tell life long skeet shooters how to shoot skeet. We don't bust into the turkey hunting forum and tell life long turkey hunters how to hunt turkey. Yet we should politely accept the opinions of those that come down here armed with the knowledge bestowed uppon them by the old timer at the gun shop or their uncles buddy who was a cop in BFE back in 1976? Furthermore when you start espousing this knowledge that may or may not be true someone reading just might take it to heart and that person just might end up putting that tidbit of info to the test, and if that info is wrong (and yes there is absolute right and wrong) someone may just end up paying for it with their life. So there ya go, take it FWIW, YMMV, no substitutions exchanges or refunds.
Word. 8)
 
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