I am no expert but I lived in a shotgun slug only state growing up. Foster slugs would do a number on a deer. But then again, deer are not as tough as bear or elk. I recovered a foster slug from a deer I shot that was a steep quartering away shot. The slug was severely expanded and had lost a good bit of it's original weight. This was on a button buck so not a big deer. The problem with foster type slugs is that they are made of soft pure lead and have a hollow base. That means that they flatten out easily when hitting bone and that impedes penetration. From what I understand, there are 2 fairly common available slugs that are made from a harder lead alloy which doesn't deform and therefore penetrate better. Brenneke slugs and Dixie slugs. If I were going to use slugs for bear or elk, I would use one of those brands of slugs and avoid foster type slugs.

 

Also, you may want to post here to get more responses:

viewforum.php?f=118

There may be people there with experience with the newer sabot slugs that can recommend one of them for big game.

 

Foster slugs CAN and DO kill black bear.

If you are expecting a bear to immediately drop "on the spot", however, there is no common shotgun or rifle made that will guarantee that. If you hit them in the heart or lungs, while they sometimes die immediately, they can also be expected to travel up to about 50 yards or more before they lose enough blood to expire. About the only way to have an animal to die instantly is a brain shot at a small target. What works for most people is the heart/lung area, it is a fairly large vital area to hit. But wounding any animal with a non-vital area is bad.

If you don't hit them in a vital area, you have either a long tracking job, and/or an angry animal on your hands.

 

Foster slugs CAN and DO kill black bear.

There is no doubt that this is a true statement. Anything CAN kill a black bear if you hit it in the right spot. On a perfect broadside shot where only ribs are hit, the Foster slug should do a wonderful job on black bear. But in the real world, that perfect broadside shot doesn't always happen. And even if it does, what if you pull the shot and hit the shoulder or the front leg? In that scenario, I wouldn't trust a Foster slug to break the shoulder or the front leg bone and still penetrate to the vitals. The button buck I shot was only 17 yards away and he only weighed roughly 65 pounds. The slug entered right in front on the left side rear leg, angled through the gut, diaphram, lungs, and hit the offside (right side) shoulder where it stopped and was recovered. It was badly deformed and nowhere close to it's original weight. If I were shooting at a 500 lb black bear, I would want better performance than that especially if the leg bone or shoulder were hit. YMMV.

 

Alaska guide when going after wounded bear that are in alder brush thickes use 00 or 000 buckshot not slugs for the dead now senaireo.

 

Most Alaskan guides use a .45-70 short lever action with Beartooth bullets or the equivalent.
Slugs seem to do okay on soft skinned game, but placement is still critical. I have seen one 475 pound black bear, one approximately 500 pound black bear, and one 700+ pound hog dropped with 12 gauge slugs. The first bear and the hog were hit in the near shoulder as they were quartering in at about 25 to 30 yards. Both smashed the shoulder and the fragments went into the chest cavity and dropped them like a box of rocks. Neither ever got up, but the bear wasn't dead. Finally expired while we were waiting for the guy with the handgun to get there, maybe 4 or 5 minutes. The second bear was also quartering in uphill from the right and the slug went inside the shoulder and entered the chest and nicked the heart and shredded one lung and then went well back stopping just short of the skin on the opposite side. The bear veered, ran into a tree going full tilt, and fell/rolled back down the hill about 20 feet. He regained his feet and took off on a line about 90 degrees to the right. Before the shooter could get a clear shot he went about 30 yards and dropped. He was dead pretty quick. I know the first bear was a Brenneke slug, don't know about the others.
I killed two small whitetail bucks that both dropped instantly. I shot an 8 pointer broadside right through both lungs at about 15 yards and we trailed him for a mile and a half. Checked it on a map later because I could not believe it. Looked like someone was pouring blood out of a bucket the whole time and about every 400 yards he stopped and coughed up a handful of pink foam. Found him just before it was too dark to see. I never shot another deer with a slug. That same day my buddy shot a big doe (legal) that was running with the buck I shot, also through the lungs, but rather far back, and they trailed her a little further than my deer and lost her in the dark. That may have been just an exceptionally tough little herd of deer.
You can draw whatever conclusions you choose from this very small sample.

 

Thanks everyone, and please forgive my ignorance. Also, these questions go towards other big game like Elk, not just bear.

Ps. I posted this in another forum, but didn't get much response to it. I would love to read about real world experiences with foster slugs and big game.

Foster (aka "rifled) slugs are poor choices due to generally poor accuracy, horrible ballistic coefficients (poor impact velocity) and total lack of expansion . . . meaning poor tissue disruption compared to more suitable projectiles.

 

Thanks everyone, and please forgive my ignorance. Also, these questions go towards other big game like Elk, not just bear.

Ps. I posted this in another forum, but didn't get much response to it. I would love to read about real world experiences with foster slugs and big game.

Foster (aka "rifled) slugs are poor choices due to generally poor accuracy, horrible ballistic coefficients (poor impact velocity) and total lack of expansion . . . meaning poor tissue disruption compared to more suitable projectiles.

Are you referencing all types of rifled/smoothbore slugs, or just the common, hollow point types like the Remington Slugger? The slugs offered by Brenneke seem to be well regarded as far as offering a good power/penetration factor, and having looked at the two types side by side, I have no doubts at all that the Brennekes will penetrate significantly better - of course, that is only half the battle, and the slug will still have to be placed well on target, and be able to do enough damage to kill when it gets there. From all I gleaned on the subject, a Brenneke should be able to do that, assuming it is sufficiently accurate in a chosen gun.

If I was looking for a rifled-style slug to use for either hunting or defense, I would try Brenneke first and foremost; Federal also offers a 'Deep Penetrator' TruBall slug that might be worth a look also. I wouldn't feel comfortable with any of the normal, softer leader, HP rifled slugs for anything above deer size; as alluded to by Randy, I've heard too many stories of fragmenting and poor penetration. I haven't run across anything like that regarding the Brennekes. As has been mentioned, you can't count on any game animal dropping at the shot, no matter what critter or load or involved. Good shot placement, of course, is always important, but one always has to be prepared to shoot again quickly...I would imagine this is doubly important with larger, tougher, and more dangerous animals like bear and wild boar. I've seen head-shot squirrels manage to find enough juice to escape retrieving, so clearly, anything can happen, regardless of a proper projectile and good shooting.

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

If you can get close enough to an elk to shoot it with a slug you must have special ninja powers.

 

Thanks everyone, and please forgive my ignorance. Also, these questions go towards other big game like Elk, not just bear.

Foster (aka "rifled) slugs are poor choices due to generally poor accuracy, horrible ballistic coefficients (poor impact velocity) and total lack of expansion . . . meaning poor tissue disruption compared to more suitable projectiles.

Are you referencing all types of rifled/smoothbore slugs, or just the common, hollow point types like the Remington Slugger? The slugs offered by Brenneke seem to be well regarded as far as offering a good power/penetration factor, and having looked at the two types side by side,

Sure, there are differences, but there is no reason to bother with smoothbores at all for big game.

Why would I want a smoothbore vs. a rifle for anything? Why would anyone?

 

Remember, those jurisdictions that require shotgun slugs for deer do so for safety reasons, that is, because slugs quickly lose velocity and energy compared to the bullets of most commonly used 'big game' rifles. In the event of a complete miss, those Foster slugs will slow down and drop faster than a bullet from a .30-30.

Range is a very important consideration when using a shotgun on any big game. Up close, Foster slugs are probably fairly reliable killers, but how close can you get to the bear, and how close do you want to be?

 

If you can get close enough to an elk to shoot it with a slug you must have special ninja powers.

Ha, ha! May as well put the sword to it. :wink:

 

Why would I want a smoothbore vs. a rifle for anything? Why would anyone?

Well, for one thing, a smoothbore shotgun is far more versatile than any rifle/cartridge combination I know of. Someone may simply choose to use one, or can only afford, say one good 12 gauge shotgun. Obviously, a shotgun isn't the ideal choice for big game at any significant distance, but it can be useful. For defensive use, it is far cheaper to invest in some heavy buckshot or several boxes of Brenneke slugs than to purchase and feed a .45-70 levergun or something comparable. Obviously, unless you are constrained to use, or simply choose to employ, a smoothbore for serious big game hunting, a good rifle is a superior overall choice. I was simply trying to illustrate why someone might end up using one, particularly in a defensive capacity.

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

Remember, those jurisdictions that require shotgun slugs for deer do so for safety reasons, that is, because slugs quickly lose velocity and energy compared to the bullets of most commonly used 'big game' rifles. In the event of a complete miss, those Foster slugs will slow down and drop faster than a bullet from a .30-30.

For starters, the question was about black bear "other large game," not deer.

Secondly, the "safety" horse manure is just that. Most hunting accidents (and there aren't many) happen at close range. Problem is, a non-deforming slug goes through trees like butter and can kill you. Fire a .30-30 into a thickly-wooded river bottom, any deer 100 yards in is pretty safe.

Foster slugs are far more dangerous in the hunting woods than centerfire rifles, it isn't even close.

 

Why would I want a smoothbore vs. a rifle for anything? Why would anyone?

Well, for one thing, a smoothbore shotgun is far more versatile than any rifle/cartridge combination I know of.

If you say so. A 30-06 has taken just about anything that has ever walked or crawled on planet earth. Smoothbores are essentially muskets and not remotely comparable to rifles, as versatile, or useful. Too short a range, too inaccurate to be much of an all-around big game hunting rifle.

 

If you say so. A 30-06 has taken just about anything that has ever walked or crawled on planet earth. Smoothbores are essentially muskets and not remotely comparable to rifles, as versatile, or useful. Too short a range, too inaccurate to be much of an all-around big game hunting rifle.

As a pure rifle cartridge, yes, the '06 is about as good as they come - even better if re-loaded. You can't wingshoot a grouse, stop a bear with a slug, or drop a deer with buckshot with the same gun via a 30/06 though. That was what I meant about the versatility part. If you are strictly talking about launching a single projectile accurately at longer ranges with great accuracy for all-bigger-than-small-game work, yes, you're right about a smoothbore not being as useful. Sorry if I misled with my statement there...

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

The problem is, the better slug guns really are rifles, in the sense that they have rifled barrels, and are generally worthless for wingshooting, small game, etc. Anyone that can afford to hunt elk can afford a rifle. After all, you can pick up a Savage Axis for $300. They aren't pretty, by any means, but they group . . . and you won't wear one out big-game hunting with even ordinary care. The economy stance doesn't have a lot of merit either: .30-06, .270, .308 hunting ammo is from $1 - $2 a round. Lightfield Hybred EXP saboted slugs, to cite one example, is over $3 a shot.

 

I have never shot a bear with a slug but many whitetail deer. I have hunted for years in southwest Iowa on a friends large farm. We can use nothing but slugs in Iowa and the gun seasons are late and short. We hunt in heated huts on cold mornings (December), and run drives with men, no dogs. We usually have 10 to 15 hunters at a time.

I have killed or seen killed hundreds of deer with slugs. All kinds of slugs including Fosters. They kill big deer dead if you limit your shots to deer you can hit in the vitals. Many of the deer on drives are killed running at close range, they die too. We hardly ever lose a deer because of the huge flow of blood from hits in the heart lung area.

One afternoon we still call "Bloody Monday" we killed 21 deer on two drives. We had some depredation tags.

People who think slugs can't kill big deer or bear for that matter don't know what they are talking about.

P. S. None of these guys would be caught dead carrying a double barrel coach gun.

 

The problem is, the better slug guns really are rifles, in the sense that they have rifled barrels, and are generally worthless for wingshooting, small game, etc. Anyone that can afford to hunt elk can afford a rifle. After all, you can pick up a Savage Axis for $300. They aren't pretty, by any means, but they group . . . and you won't wear one out big-game hunting with even ordinary care. The economy stance doesn't have a lot of merit either: .30-06, .270, .308 hunting ammo is from $1 - $2 a round. Lightfield Hybred EXP saboted slugs, to cite one example, is over $3 a shot.

That is certainly true. Rifled slug guns aren't shotguns in any sense other than the gauge of the round they chamber. A lot of folks really like the performance of the newer guns with the hot sabot slugs, but unless I lived somewhere I was required to hunt with one, and wanted long range capabilities, I wouldn't own one - a smoothbore is so much more versatile and useful to me. Now, if someone had a rifled slug barrel and a smoothbore one, that wouldn't be a bad setup and would cover a lot of bases.

The sabot slugs are indeed expensive; though still not cheap, smoothbore slugs, even Brennekes, are less costly than sabots (and some rifle rounds) on average. As you say, unless you have to use one (or just happen to like it) a rifled slug gun is neither inexpensive to use nor very versatile. I understand why the exist though, and if you live in a shotgun-only district, and want to reach way out there with good modern loads, a sabot slug gun is the only option you have.

You're right about being able to afford a decent rifle if you can elk hunt etc. For someone who wants to use his bird or house shotgun for defense in bear country, or some close range hunting because it's what he has and can afford, it's a bit different of course. That said, with most modern shotguns, one can always get an extra barrel - often fairly inexpensively - that is rifled for sabots, and thus use that for big game work, which might be the best option there. I wonder how these hot sabot rounds compare to something like a Brenneke for penetration? I haven't seen much written about sabot slugs for use on bear, hogs, etc.

The development of accurate $300 boltguns has been a big thing for shooters; as you mentioned, they pretty well all shoot well and have good triggers now. Sadly, this development is certainly a huge factor in the decline of popularity regarding other action types, like the lever.

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

P. S. None of these guys would be caught dead carrying a double barrel coach gun.

I don't imagine it's something most folks would think of for that, which is understandable. As long as it put the buckshot and/or slugs where I wanted them, I'd carry one. I think the short length, fast handling, and dual triggers are very useful, and aside from a few less shots, I wouldn't feel like I was being short changed not carrying a pump. Nothing wrong with any option, so long as it hits where you aim & you can shoot it well :B3

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

I wonder how these hot sabot rounds compare to something like a Brenneke for penetration? I haven't seen much written about sabot slugs for use on bear, hogs, etc.

Once you make two holes, anything beyond that is superfluous. All a "slug" is, is a bullet. A .45 caliber slug is still a .45 caliber bullet, regardless. Putting a sabot around it is nothing new at all. The vast majority of the animals on the wall here (caribou, black bear, kudu, warthog, pronghorn, deer, etc.) were taken with just that, just out of a muzzleloader. The heavier the game, the higher the impact velocity . . . the heavier and tougher the bullet.

The "Deer Room" label must have been a typo. We took sixteen hogs by eleven in the morning that day, mostly with 90 - 100 grains of powder, or less. Mostly saboted slugs out of muzzleloaders, a few with bore-sized conicals. There isn't much left to write about.

 

I wonder how these hot sabot rounds compare to something like a Brenneke for penetration? I haven't seen much written about sabot slugs for use on bear, hogs, etc.

Once you make two holes, anything beyond that is superfluous. All a "slug" is, is a bullet. A .45 caliber slug is still a .45 caliber bullet, regardless. Putting a sabot around it is nothing new at all. The vast majority of the animals on the wall here (caribou, black bear, kudu, warthog, pronghorn, deer, etc.) were taken with just that, just out of a muzzleloader. The heavier the game, the higher the impact velocity . . . the heavier and tougher the bullet.

The "Deer Room" label must have been a typo. We took sixteen hogs by eleven in the morning that day, mostly with 90 - 100 grains of powder, or less. Mostly saboted slugs out of muzzleloaders, a few with bore-sized conicals. There isn't much left to write about.

Good point, I hadn't thought of it that way; as you say, a pile of big game has been killed by saboted bullets fired from front stuffers. I think I've only read one article about a fellow shooting a black bear in Canada a Mossberg FLEX rifled slug gun...like you mentioned, most of the rounds used have been around for a while though. It seems to me the biggest point of emphasis with the shotgun sabot folks is increasing practical range nowadays, which they have done a pretty good job on by all accounts.
One plus with a rifled slug gun I can see is that you can shoot rifled slugs out of it also - apparently Brenneke slugs are designed to shoot in them as well as in smoothbores. You probably wouldn't get quite the accuracy levels you'd see with the sabots, but it would be one way to make a rifled 'shotgun' more economical.

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

One plus with a rifled slug gun I can see is that you can shoot rifled slugs out of it also - apparently Brenneke slugs are designed to shoot in them as well as in smoothbores. You probably wouldn't get quite the accuracy levels you'd see with the sabots, but it would be one way to make a rifled 'shotgun' more economical.

The only problem with that theory is that they aren't particularly economical: in fact, there are more costly to shoot than muzzleloaders. It is a real stretch for big game . . . who thinks that an elk or a black bear's life isn't worth an extra 50 cents? 75 cents? Ammo costs are so miniscule compared to overall hunting costs it almost isn't worth mentioning. If we are worried the bullet we put into a big game animal costs an extra dollar, then hunting itself just isn't for us. Even one half dozen Easton Hexx Carbon hunting arrows will cost you about $80. What is our actual cost per pound for dove breast? :shock: The "economy" notion doesn't often work extremely well.

 

One plus with a rifled slug gun I can see is that you can shoot rifled slugs out of it also - apparently Brenneke slugs are designed to shoot in them as well as in smoothbores. You probably wouldn't get quite the accuracy levels you'd see with the sabots, but it would be one way to make a rifled 'shotgun' more economical.

The only problem with that theory is that they aren't particularly economical: in fact, there are more costly to shoot than muzzleloaders. It is a real stretch for big game . . . who thinks that an elk or a black bear's life isn't worth an extra 50 cents? 75 cents? Ammo costs are so miniscule compared to overall hunting costs it almost isn't worth mentioning. If we are worried the bullet we put into a big game animal costs an extra dollar, then hunting itself just isn't for us. Even one half dozen Easton Hexx Carbon hunting arrows will cost you about $80. What is our actual cost per pound for dove breast? :shock: The "economy" notion doesn't often work extremely well.

I see the point you are driving at there Randy. All things weighed, ammunition cost, even for those of us on a tight budget, is probably not as big an issue as we might often believe.

As mentioned, I'm not really a fan of rifled slug guns anyhow, though they do have advantages over muzzleloaders, and vice versa of course. For versatility and general utility, I will always take a smoothbore shotgun :B3

Sorry if I got this thread off track folks...that wasn't my intent :roll: :mrgreen: So getting back to task, I would most definitely try out one or more varieties of Brenneke slug straight away for any shotgunning task, smoothbore barrel or otherwise, that called for good quality, knockdown power, and penetrative capabilities. I'm sure there are other viable options, but that would be my first, go-to choice.

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

 

P. S. None of these guys would be caught dead carrying a double barrel coach gun.

I don't imagine it's something most folks would think of for that, which is understandable. As long as it put the buckshot and/or slugs where I wanted them, I'd carry one. I think the short length, fast handling, and dual triggers are very useful, and aside from a few less shots, I wouldn't feel like I was being short changed not carrying a pump. Nothing wrong with any option, so long as it hits where you aim & you can shoot it well :B3

Kind Regards,

~ SH ~

Rifled slugs out of a cheap double gun with a bead sight. That's an Elmer Fudd deer gun. You'd be a laughing stock and the butt of jokes and the entire hunt with a gun like that.

The owner of this farm wouldn't let you use it. No one wants to spend time tracking down gut shot deer.