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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have brought this subject up once before in different context but I though we try a similar discussion again.

My premise is that the fully rifle shotguns would never exist if not for the laws (law that IMHO are falsely based) imposed on hunters by state divisions of wildlife. The development of a the fully rifle shotguns is a solution to a problem we (hunters and conversationalist) have artificially imposed on ourselves. There would not be enough interest in fully rifle shotguns to fund their development if not for the restriction (and thus artificial demand) the state division of wildlife put on hunters.

The fully rifle shotgun is IMHO a retarded-rifle not a shotgun. The fully rifled shotgun has more in common with the classic definition of a rifle than the classic definition of the shotgun. IMHO the fully rifled shotgun is a rifle not a shotgun.

I believe if the slug only hunting regulations were drop that with in a year we would see the sabot slug industry go belly up and the foster slug industry take a serious hit. Very few hunters would choose to use the retarded-rifle (ie rifled shotgun) if they could use a regular carbine or rifle to hunt deer.

The rifle shotgun has very few of the advantages of a real rifle and none of the versatility of a regular smooth bore shotgun. The only thing the retarded-rifle gets you is moderately increased accuracy and range over a smooth bore shotgun when firing a single projectile but still fall well short of what a rifle is capable of and looses all the versatility of the shotgun.

The real rub is the primary reason we supposedly have slug only regulation is for safety. Supposedly when we miss a deer a shotgun slug will go a shorter distance than a rifle bullet. This appear to be a false bases for require hunters to use the retarded-rifle. It seems to me that a saboted-bullet from a retarded-rifle would have nearly the same lethal (not effective) range as many real rifles. I have read an article that quotes a fairly scientific study done by Mountaintop Technologies an Army contractor done at Picatinny arsenal that supports my intuition. The research points out that a saboted-bullets has nearly the same lethal reach as a rifle. So the reason many hunters are stuck hunting with the retarded-rifle is for reasons that in the light of the facts seem pretty silly.

Rambling
mcb

I also found a link to a presentation version of the study. PDF
 

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I agree 110% :)

The gun I will carry in the woods this fall has true 300 yard lethal capability and is legal, yet I can't hunt with a rifle cartridge that has less power and range :(
 

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Mcbirch, You bring up an issue that has surfaced numerous times over the years. And yes you are right. The quest for the ever faster, ever lengthened range of the current sabots could really be a problem in the future. If it is deemed to be a problem I can just see a limitation in velocity for these rounds. Don't laugh. In Michigan we recently accepted crossbows during regular bow season. HOWEVER, the velocity CANNOT to be over 350 FPS.

Imagine slug rounds limited to 1600 fps with a minimum weight of 400 gr as a starter.
The ML crowd would grow by leaps and bounds if that should happen.
 

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I agree McBirch.

The states that require these expensive, relatively inaccurate, faux rifles would be much better served if they allowed pistol cartridge rifles like Indiana does.

They are cheaper to shoot, more accurate across the board and most have a useable 100-150 yard range (depending upon caliber). In other words, they are everything a slug gun aspires to be.

I have a couple of slug guns still and like fooling with them, but they won't be my primary deer hunting gun again.

I have to roll my eyes @ these DNRs and wonder who runs things.

Jim
 

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Neo,

You would know more about this subject than I do (hence the reason I'm asking you, McBirch and others) but it seems to me that the velocity levels have really reached their high side haven't they? The Partitition gold slugs in 12 gauge that came out several years ago pushed the limit to around 2000 fps and I was under the impression that due to pressure limitations that was about as fast as a slug would be pushed from major ammo manufacturers.

Since the pg, we've all seen new bullets and sabots every year, but have we really seen any major advances in velocity?

Just curious as to what you guys think.

Jim
 

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We could also do away with all those different rifle calibers ,because some are so close to each other in performance their is no need for all of them. Might as well knock out some of those pistiol calibers also.
 

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Yeah, we can go for a volkswagon and a chevy. We don't need any other vehicle-that is what socialism would call for. :shock:
 

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Rangeball said:
I agree 110% :)

The gun I will carry in the woods this fall has true 300 yard lethal capability and is legal, yet I can't hunt with a rifle cartridge that has less power and range :(
Yeah, but you're not exactly going to be spraying rounds down range at an AR rate of fire with your "300 yard" gun. :p

That being said, I couldn't agree with more the original post.
 

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lwh723 said:
Rangeball said:
I agree 110% :)

The gun I will carry in the woods this fall has true 300 yard lethal capability and is legal, yet I can't hunt with a rifle cartridge that has less power and range :(
Yeah, but you're not exactly going to be spraying rounds down range at an AR rate of fire with your "300 yard" gun. :p

That being said, I couldn't agree with more the original post.
God let's hope not :)

I know guys who do with their 12g autos full of high speed "slugs" which the study pointed out have at least even if not more long range lethality than rifles. I also hear the evidence every opening morning, sounds like I'm in the middle of a war zone... "BAM BAM BAM.....(reload) BAM BAM BAM... repeat :(
 

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Rangeball
I know guys who do with their 12g autos full of high speed "slugs" which the study pointed out have at least even if not more long range lethality than rifles. I also hear the evidence every opening morning, sounds like I'm in the middle of a war zone... "BAM BAM BAM.....(reload) BAM BAM BAM... repeat
You must live in a state that requires a three shot plug....I hear bam, bam, bam, bam, bam on opening morning. :shock:

Jim
 

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Yup. It's amazing how fast they can reload those things.

I once fired two shots from my single shot so fast that the guys I was hunting with didn't think it could have been me :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
jjas said:
I agree McBirch.

The states that require these expensive, relatively inaccurate, faux rifles would be much better served if they allowed pistol cartridge rifles like Indiana does.

They are cheaper to shoot, more accurate across the board and most have a useable 100-150 yard range (depending upon caliber). In other words, they are everything a slug gun aspires to be.

I have a couple of slug guns still and like fooling with them, but they won't be my primary deer hunting gun again.

I have to roll my eyes @ these DNRs and wonder who runs things.

Jim
I couldn't agree with the above more.

I would love to see Ohio allow pistol caliber carbines for deer hunting. I wouldn't mind if they even specified particular cartridges. I would go out and buy a rifle chambered in what ever cartridge they specify. The 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, and 45 Colt all are great 100 yard and more deer cartridges when fired from a nice carbine.

My obsession with the 410 slug started with a desire to hunt deer with a lever action. Since I do my hunting here in Ohio (shotgun/pistol/muzzle-loader state) I had originally started looking for an old or replica Winchester 1887/1901. About the time I got serious about it Winchester released the Winchester 9410. When I realize the 410 slug was legal here in Ohio it was love at first sight. I get to hunt deer with a firearm that looks, feels and handles just like a 30-30 but is legal for deer here in Ohio.

mcb
 

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Rangeball said:
Yup. It's amazing how fast they can reload those things.

I once fired two shots from my single shot so fast that the guys I was hunting with didn't think it could have been me :)
I once fired 11 shots from my 25WSSM AR so fast, the guys in my group thought I must have been shooting... oh wait. :oops: For the record, I did take three deer; would have had more, but the the 100gr TSX didn't put them down right away.

Seriously, though, I shotgun hunt in Iowa. I know all about lots of shots being thrown down range. I was once witness (ok involved in, but it was in my younger days...) to a herd of deer that ran broadside at approximately 100 yards to 6-8 guys. Everyone emptied their gun (5 rounds ea), but only one deer went down. Of course, it was the biggest buck in the group, so the majority of the shooters may have been focused on that.

My point was your MZ while pretty much like a centerfire rifle isn't nearly as big of risk (IMO) as a semi-auto or pump rifle. Most MZ hunters don't drive hunt, and the ones that do, usually do much more controlled drives, more like light pushes or gentle guidance (in my experience)
 

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McB,

This discussion has long since been resolved. The Rifled slug gun is no more retarded than the black powder only rifled MZ, or even the smokeless MZ.....It is not any of the guns that is retarded....It is the state laws that are retarded.

In fact if you would like to have a current discussion...You would be better off comparing the recent explosion of sabotless smokeless Muzzleloaders to a rifle. If ever you wanted to call something a retard-rifle...that would be it!!...Yet of course it is still fully legal in many locations where rifles are completely illegal. :wink:

JC
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
jcchartboy said:
McB,

This discussion has long since been resolved. The Rifled slug gun is no more retarded than the black powder only rifled MZ, or even the smokeless MZ.....It is not any of the guns that is retarded....It is the state laws that are retarded.

In fact if you would like to have a current discussion...You would be better off comparing the recent explosion of sabotless smokeless Muzzleloaders to a rifle. If ever you wanted to call something a retard-rifle...that would be it!!...Yet of course it is still fully legal in many locations where rifles are completely illegal. :wink:

JC
I was using the "retarded-rifle" moniker mostly in jest but I still believe that had none of the state divisions of wildlife enacted slug only restriction the fully rifled shotgun would still be a concept sitting a on gun designer's drawing board looking for a problem to solve. I am not saying that they don't work (they obviously do) I am saying that the niche the fully rifled shotgun fills is wholly a product of artificial restriction not a solution to real world functional requirements. Without hunting regulations forcing hunters to use shotgun/slug there would have been no drive/demaned to develop fully rifled shotgun. Yes, it's the retarded laws that forces the hunter to look for some new gun, forcing the engineers to design the retarded-rifle. There is absolutely nothing a fully rifled shotgun can do that cannot be accomplish as well or better with a properly selected rifle and cartridge.

Rambling: IMHO the shotgun has always been the great multi-tool of firearms. You can hunt small game, wing shoot, varmint hunt, home defense and big game hunt with the same gun by simply changing the ammo you load in the gun. When you make it fully rifled you suddenly have turned the ultimate multi-tool firearm into a uni-tasker. The sad part is that the one task its been pigeon holed into is one that it struggles to full fill compared to other firearms available. I truly have nothing against them, other than my angst against poorly reasoned hunting regulations, but I do have to say that the fully rifled shotgun does not wholly full fill the spirit of slug hunting IMHO.

FWIW: Haveing read just a little bit about them, I would definitely lump sabotless smokeless muzzle-loaders into the retarded-rifle group. Legal or not it again does not seem to quite fit the spirit of the muzzle-loader deer season IMHO.

mcb
 

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I agree 100% Mcbirch. I was only stating that this discussion with regard to slug guns is nothing new. In addtion, adding that the sabotless smokeless MZ, which most deer hunters don't even know exists, is now the modern day version of that same old discussion.

JC
 

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McBirch
The sad part is that the one task its been pigeon holed into is one that it struggles to full fill compared to other firearms available
How true. If we owned a centerfire rifle that shot 3-4" groups w/ammo that cost $2.00-$4.00 per round @ 100 yards we'd have a fit. We get that out of a slug gun and think it's pretty good accuracy. :lol:

Jim
 

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lwh723 said:
My point was your MZ while pretty much like a centerfire rifle isn't nearly as big of risk (IMO) as a semi-auto or pump rifle. Most MZ hunters don't drive hunt, and the ones that do, usually do much more controlled drives, more like light pushes or gentle guidance (in my experience)
Absolutely agree. However, those studies mcbirch linked make me question if I'd feel safer with guys wailing away with a lighter bullet that may be more prone to break up rather than ricochet or a heavier bullet that might still find me the next holler over. And around here, I would NOT like to see unrestricted centerfire use, but certainly pistol/rifle cartridge that match what a shotgun or ML can do right not, like the .45/70 down, no problem.

I would however fully and wholeheartedly also support PRC limited to single shots only :)
 

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In principle I agree with the original post and the comments made supporting it so far as far as it concerns the use of rifled slug guns with high velocity sabot loads intended to give the gun a mazimum range potential. In my opinion most hunters would be better off getting themselves a scoped big bore revolver and learning how to use it to hunt such shotgun/handgun/muzzle-loader only areas. However, I will say that the same fully rifled 12 bore loaded with full bore heavy solids is not "retarded" in any way shape or form but rather a "nitch" gun suitable for use in close quarters on stuff you want dead NOW !!!! In this case there is absolutely no reason for their to be any increase in chamber pressure up to conventional rifle pressures when loaded to maximum shotgun chamber pressures such loads are usually more then your average shooter can take anyway.

P.S. I consider myself above average.
 
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