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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Went out to the sporting course today with 100 reloads for myself and 50 for my dad, I had a mix of gun-clubs, STS's and silver AA's, all had Fio primers. I had about 4 failure to fire and my dad had about 10, we were both pretty frustrated and didn't trust the shells and our scores suffered because of it.. This was the first time we used our reloads and the experience wasn't that great, i'm ready to just buy value packs from walmart and call it quits, but we each have about 5K rounds worth of components, seemed all the problems were with the gun-clubs.. Don't know if the weather had anything to do with it, it was 30's and we took the pickup and had the ammo and guns in the back on the way to the course, although 350 other factory rounds round my friends shot all went bang..

Specs.

MEC grabber
Gun-clubs, STS's, silver AA's
Fio primers,
18 GN clays
DR XL-1 wads

Gun clubs produced exactly .187 thousandths of lift on the primer seat spring, just like the manual calls for.

My dad only had gun-clubs and they " seemed " to be the problem,, any help would be appreciated before I throw this loader through the window, kinda frustrated we bought all this equipment and have problems right off the bat.. Any help, or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Chris..
 

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A fellow at the range where I've been shooting had several FTF with Fiocchi primers. To my eye, the base of the shell did seem slightly dished, and the Fiocchis are fairly flat, but I couldn't say for certain it was the primer's fault. Many on this board have loaded and shot thousnads of Fiocchis with no problems. Try some other primers before you chuck that Grabber out the window. Best of luck.
 

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I've never used Fiocchi primers but have read several posts about their poor cold weather performance especially with light powder charges. I'm pretty sure the Gun Club hulls are not the issue.
 

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Chris, chuck the loader, and send the lead over hear. :lol:

One might suspect problems in the begining Chris... like most anything else in life, your not often perfect when learning. Bet if you ask Case or DL, or any of the very experienced loaders on this forum, they'd tell you they are still learning!

If the primers are going off in STS's, but not in the gun clubs, might tell you, it is not the primer. 30's isn't really all that cold, unless you go out for the morning paper in your underware at 5am, and close the auto locking front door behind you... :shock: :lol: :lol: Easy solution would be, chuck the Gun Clubs rather than the loader.

My favorite hulls in 12g are Rem heavy dove, (green hulls) but even they can get the primers pushed in far enough to collapse the base. You might try backing the seat pressure off until the primers just don't quite seat, then set to push in just a tiny bit more, this solved the problem for me.

I'd suggest you stick with one kind of hull to start with, and build your load around that till you are confident you have got a handle on it.

Course... you could still chuck the loader and send the lead this way~! :lol:

bd
 

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Its not the Gun clubs, STS's, AA's, nor is it the primers. There's just to many of both being used with no problems for it to be that. I would bet money you're seating the primer to deep in the hull.

Just curious, what guns were you an your Dad using?
 

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I have been using Cheddite primers for several years,

the primers have always worked it is the me thing when the shells don't work!
 

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Any chance you picked up wet hulls? Early in my reloading career I had 7 FTF's with some AA's I reloaded with Win 209's. I hadn't checked the inside of the pickups for moisture.

Gun Clubs have a steel base, so you'd really have to crank down on 'em to dish anything. Is your collet super tight and reducing the primer pocket?
 

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I've been using Fiocchi primers in Gun Club hulls for 10,000 primers and haven't found a gun they don't work well in. The combo isn't the problem. As was mentioned, seating depth is the first thing to check. Since you already have the components, adjust the depth slightly and see if that takes care of the problem. I have had a few shell bases on the Gun Clubs that didn't fare well with the resizing process and had to pitch them. You don't mention the guns being used, but if they are over unders and the misfires occur in the top barrel, it could be a situation where the primer seating depth is just a bit long given the travel of the firing pin. Again, adjusting the seating depth slightly would be the first step to take.

Many years ago, I had problems with Fiocchi primers in a Browning Gold auto. The primer cups were a bit hard and the misfires a bit too frequent. I kind of shied away from them for years. That issue seems to have been taken care of. I just bought another 10,000 Fiocchi's, so I have obviously gotten over my angst and I'll bet with a little detective work, you will to.
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Guys, as always, thanks for the help, My dad and I both have Win. Select energy's. I've shot about 6-7K with only one FTF, he's had about 6 in 4,000 and since we bought up 4K worth of gun-clubs for reloading, he had 3 factory FTF's just last week with his. I was even thinking he's having a light strike problem in his lower barrel. Yesterday, I had 3-4 FTF out of 100, while he had many more, maybe like 10, out of 50 with our first try at reloads.

I'm going to back off on the primer seating pressure until the primer does not seat and then slowly bring up the pressure until it's just barely seated.

It's just frustrating, the course is an hour away, it's not cheap to shoot, not to mention gas, tolls, and ammo cost, it's something we very much enjoy doing, and the last thing I want is to have a miserable time doing it,, hopefully I'll get the bugs worked out and all will be well...
Thanks again...
 

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chris288 - Two questions if I may.

1) What kind of dents are you getting in the primers of the FTF ammo?

2) Have you tried these FTF shells again in a different barrel, or better yet, in a different gun?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Alright, you guys that bet money that the primers were " over-seated " my address is as follows.... Just kidding, 8) When I got home tonight, I took some advice and checked the remaining 250 or so reloads I still have, there is absolutely no difference in the heights of the primers of the factory gun clubs, factory federals or once fired gun-clubs I reloaded. I checked with a straight edge and a caliper they were all within a thousandths or so, infact some of the factory G-C's were lower than mine. My seating punch raised exactly .187 like the manual said, I backed it off slightly and the primers would not completely seat, I had to put it back just about right where it was to get them to not stick up....

All the FTF's were on the bottom barrels of my Select energy and my dads select energy, they all fired the second time except for ONE, even in the upper barrel of my dads S.E.

The dents in the primers of all the FTF's all looked like light strikes, I don't know and not being a wise ***, but I would assume that would be the case, no ???

In looking at our guns, the lower firing pins on our S.E.'s appear to be the same design as the Brownings with the angled pins, I'm told FTF with the lower barrels of these designs could be considered a common problem with certain primer combinations, and that stiffer springs usually fix this problem straight away. only problem is I don't see our model listed on Wolf's site...

Last time I had my S.E. receiver apart for cleaning, I'm pretty sure the design of the lock nut on the guide shaft for the hammer spring could just be cranked in a few turns to put more force on the hammers, i'm wondering if this is the case ???... Thanks again Chris..
 

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Chris, I've had the same problem with a 525. The light strike, says primer depth to me. I can't see how a stronger spring will help because the pin is only allowed to travel so far, no matter how strong the spring is.

I have had the light strike with factory Rem's, Win 209's, and Cheddites. All fired in the top barrel. I did have one deep hit that FTF, but it would not go off no matter what gun it was tried in... it was a dud primer.

All I can tell you is backing off the primer depth fixed the problem for me. I am currious to see if the remainder of the shells you have fire.

Did you put a straight edge accross the base of the shell? When Mok did this test just a couple of weeks ago, it was apperent that the base was pushed in. You could easily see the gap under the straight edge when he photographed it against the backdrop of a light. It's not that the primer is actually pushed in to far into the hull, it can't be, it has a collar... it's that the push causes the base of the shell to collapse in, and this takes the primer away from the pin causing the light hit.

Were talking a couple of thousands here. The depth of a normal hit, cut in half, produces an FTF... The primer requires a decient hit to set it off. If the spring is too week to push the pin to its full depth, it's an FTF. If the primer is pushed into the hull until the base of the hull collapses just a couple of thousands, this will also move the primer away enough to produce an FTF.
bd
 

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Bel_Dad wrote:
"I can't see how a stronger spring will help because the pin is only allowed to travel so far, no matter how strong the spring is."

That's where you are dead wrong BD.

Inertia carries the pin a tad farther after the hammer hits the frame and can protrude much farther that it looks like when looking at the receiver with the pins extended.

So, the harder the pins are hit, the more inertia there is, and the deeper the pin strike.

DLM
 

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Then there is the dirty firing pin recesses in the action that needs the pins removed, cleaned and lubricated with a light oil.
 

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chris288 said:
All the FTF's were on the bottom barrels of my Select energy and my dads select energy, they all fired the second time except for ONE, even in the upper barrel of my dads S.E.

The dents in the primers of all the FTF's all looked like light strikes,
That makes me think you might want to take a look at the guns.

Checking the springs might be a thing to do. Also Curly idea makes sense.

Curly-Nohair said:
Then there is the dirty firing pin recesses in the action that needs the pins removed, cleaned and lubricated with a light oil.
If your gun is similar to the old Belgium Brownings, don't be surprised if you find a cracked firing pin.

Back when Belguim Brownings were common on the skeet fields, many of their users preferred rounded primers (ala Federal and Remingtons) to flat primers (ala Winchester).
 

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DL, isn't there a collar on the pin to give the pin a fixed stopping spot? You can't grab onto the pin and pull it from the breach... If dirt were to get under the collar, it would keep the pin from moving all the way forward, would it not?... Do I read this design wrong?

When I had the FTF problem, my gun was quite new. I resloved it with adjustments on the loader, never cleaned the gun action, pin's etc, and haven't had the problem since... A couple thousand shells, and a few dozen broken targets later... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

bd
 

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bel_dad said:
DL, isn't there a collar on the pin to give the pin a fixed stopping spot? You can't grab onto the pin and pull it from the breach... If dirt were to get under the collar, it would keep the pin from moving all the way forward, would it not?... Do I read this design wrong?

When I had the FTF problem, my gun was quite new. I resolved it with adjustments on the loader, never cleaned the gun action, pin's etc, and haven't had the problem since... A couple thousand shells, and a few dozen broken targets later... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

bd
The hammer runs into a stop, but the firing pin has room to go deeper into the firing pin recess before that shoulder hits, this is where the inertial action comes in.
 
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