If the perfect pattern is 30 inches across (you are welcome to pick another number) at the range where the clays will be hit. And the clay is only 4.3 inches across (like a standard sized clay) ................

..............then why do we need perfect fit :?: . After all, that's a huge margin for error. 225 sq in's to hit a clay that --from the side-- is about 4 inches square.

My guess. It's something other than "fit."

 

The change at the target wouldn't be .225 inches.

Let's say the end of the barrel is 2' from my hand and the end of the stock is 1' back. The barrel would come up 1/4" for every 1/8" I push the stock down.

For every 8' that's 1" of change. 90' (30 yards) would be a change of 11.25". That's probably enough to miss, especially if I'm now just catching it with the top of my pattern.

 

I agree with analyst. Movements of 1/16's of an in. at your stock is many inches or even a few feet of of movement at 40 yds, he is obviously better at math than I am. I do understand that "scatter guns" leave a little wiggle room but I think it is far less than one would think.

 

I'm not suggesting that the change at target is .225 in. The pattern at target is 225 sq inches.

If you need to hit one sq inch of target , you have 224 more sq inches than you need.

PLUS in actual practice , I have seen shooters wriggling into their guns that obviously don't fit and shoot high scores , too. I have seen them not mount on the shoulder pocket at all and still break the target. I have seen shooters who can barely see the bead and others who see the whole rib....yet each hits a high % of the clays. I have seen guns that are horribly off line , too high , too low , too much left or right. I have seen guns w/ such crappy triggers that pulling one forces the shooter to pull the gun way off line. What I have NEVER seen is a gun that is off by a few millimeters on how the beads are aligned that mattered a hoot.

Head lifting or gun slowing is a much more likely cause of missing.

 

Head lifting or gun slowing is a much more likely cause of missing.

And what is typically the cause of this?

 

The real point of this is that I've proven to myself time-and-again that I tend to shoot low and I shoot much better with higher comb heights.

However, I seem to be in denial most of the time that I really need that much comb height. Since I'm home today, I just went and checked my gun and the pads needed to get the barrel to where it was when I shot it well. For my combination, I estimate at 30 yards I was shooting 17" below the target. I'd need a pattern greater than 34" to hit the target. I was shooting Modified chokes.

 

My "gun fit" experience is as follows: When I started shooting Sporting Clays, and later FITASC, I assumed that my previous NSSA Skeet shooting experience(s) regarding gun fit would work for the new game(s). WRONG!! With NSSA Skeet and even with ATA Trap I was shooting a mounted gun and in the matter of Skeet targets I had open chokes that threw open patterns. I was shooting at 20yard targets that where in the same place every time. So gun fit was not as critical and I basically bought and shot guns with standard, from the manufacturer, stock dimensions. Even LOP was not an issue due to the mounted gun. With S/C's I knew I needed to find someone who could help me with my gun fit. I started by doing a lot of pattern work with chokes and loads my guns at various distances and I quickly found that even when the "beads" looked in line when looking down the barrel I was not always shooting my best patterns where I was focusing or "looking". So I began playing around with LOP and comb height and drop and degrees of pitch etc. After several sessions with three different gun fitting gurus, and a try gun fitting session, I finally hit on what was right for me. When I did find that correct stock and gun fit it made a tremendous difference in my confidence and it seemed like wherever I was looking, assuming that I was focusing hard on the target and had done the proper mount and matched the target speed etc., VOLA, I would have a strong break, regardless of the distance or type of target. Now I know that there are many factors in breaking a target and gun fit is just one of them but for me finally getting a stock that works along with a balanced gun that weighs and feels good has really helped my confidence and I now feel like I can focus on improving my shooting technique through lessons and practice without wondering if my gun is shooting where I'm looking. It was worth all the effort, time and money spent and I will never again be so dismissive when shooters talk about gun fit and it's associated importance to our game.

 

I'm not suggesting that the change at target is .225 in. The pattern at target is 225 sq inches.

If you need to hit one sq inch of target , you have 224 more sq inches than you need.

PLUS in actual practice , I have seen shooters wriggling into their guns that obviously don't fit and shoot high scores , too. I have seen them not mount on the shoulder pocket at all and still break the target. I have seen shooters who can barely see the bead and others who see the whole rib....yet each hits a high % of the clays. I have seen guns that are horribly off line , too high , too low , too much left or right. I have seen guns w/ such crappy triggers that pulling one forces the shooter to pull the gun way off line. What I have NEVER seen is a gun that is off by a few millimeters on how the beads are aligned that mattered a hoot.

Head lifting or gun slowing is a much more likely cause of missing.

+1

Before coming on these forums and learning more about competitive sporting clays I had no clue people that weren't Olympians got so much into gun fit.

I've out shot people with $2000+ O/U's using a mossberg maverick pump before, I am a firm believer that the skill is in the person and not the gun.

 

Gun fit is important, agreed. However, knowing where to point it is more important. Most good shooters can take anybody else's gun, even one wildly mis-fit, and still hit a 35 yard crosser regularly with it...

 

Gun fit is important, agreed. However, knowing where to point it is more important. Most good shooters can take anybody else's gun, even one wildly mis-fit, and still hit a 35 yard crosser regularly with it...

Yes, yes they can! And I have proven time and again, I cannot! Ability plays a large part.

 

My apologies . Pi times R squared= 700+ sq inches or 699 more than you need to break the clay.

Head lifting is caused by several things incl 1] not having a good hold point and letting the gun obscure the clay 2]having the clay going into shadows and losing focus on it.

Slowing (called stopping) the gun is caused my focusing on the gap , meaning looking too much at the bbls and not focusing enough on the clay.

 

I'm not suggesting that the change at target is .225 in. The pattern at target is 225 sq inches.

If you need to hit one sq inch of target , you have 224 more sq inches than you need.

Not to pick on you, sera, but the difference is much greater than that. 3.14159... times greater. The number for "pi". The formula for figuring the area of a circle is Pi times the radius squared (3.14159 x R x R) and for a 30" pattern, the area actually comes out to 707 sq in. (3.14159 x 15 x 15).

While that makes it look like we should never miss, the more important consideration is where the barrel is pointed...duh. :roll: Allow me to give an example.

Back in the dark ages of aviation, before GPS and all the new goodies, we had a gouge we used to see how far off the centerline of our intended course we were. At 60 miles from a nav station, if we were 1* off of the centerline, we were 1 mile off. If we were 120 miles out, that one degree meant we were 2 miles off course.

Now let's change the miles to feet and yards. On a 20yd (60ft) shot, that one degree off on where we're pointed means we're off by 1 ft at the target. Given the "wiggle room" the size of our shot pattern gives us, it's probably still a dead bird. 2 degrees off and we still have a chance. If we now go out to that 40 yd crosser we all love, that one or two degree error means the shot pattern could be off by 2 to 4 ft... followed by our wondering 'how the ___ did I miss that one!?!?!'

The point of all this being that a slightly misfitting gun (or an inconsistent mount) can easily get the barrel pointing a degree or two, or more, off of where we think it is with the resulting miss.

On edit - Sera, you beat me to the "submit" button so disregard the first part.

 

I dunno... 1 degree (60 MOA) is roughly 0.6" (or ~5/8") at the muzzle for a roughly 3-foot site radius between eyeball and front bead, and that equates to nearly 20" off at 32 yards -- or over half the pattern diameter off center... I think one needs to be reliably able to point to within ½ degree (or 30 MOA) to be reasonably successful at clays...

 

I think I heard this on a Dumb & Dumber movie :shock: : It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

8)

 

Sera,

But it's also stupid for a craftsman to use a bent square

 

I think I heard this on a Dumb & Dumber movie :shock: : It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

8)

Okay, no need to be insulting. There's a difference between saying "I'm not doing this well because I need better tools" and "I think I'm not doing this well because I'm not using the tools correctly".

 

Now see, when I read the OP's statement what caught my ear was...

I cheated the gun down on my cheek a little and hit 6 out of 8 targets vs. 4 the first time through, and the light bulb came on.

I thought he had figured out the gun was in the way and now he could see the target better...which would be a decent take away. Just saying...

 

sorry: No insult meant. :?

Maybe 5 or 6 yrs ago , I decided I had to stop blaming stuff for poor results. I had to come to grips w/ the fact that only I am too blame. Then I can work on a way to address it and (maybe) get better.

 

Head lifting is caused by several things incl 1] not having a good hold point and letting the gun obscure the clay 2]having the clay going into shadows and losing focus on it.

Yes and those willy target setters can and do get you to lift your head to get a better look at that bird especially with newer shooters.. :lol: :lol:
Thats when you see them sitting in the ranger back off to the side watch you shoot and then they drive away snickering..

 

I'm not suggesting that the change at target is .225 in. The pattern at target is 225 sq inches.

If you need to hit one sq inch of target , you have 224 more sq inches than you need.

Not to pick on you, sera, but the difference is much greater than that. 3.14159... times greater. The number for "pi". The formula for figuring the area of a circle is Pi times the radius squared (3.14159 x R x R) and for a 30" pattern, the area actually comes out to 707 sq in. (3.14159 x 15 x 15).

A train leaves Cleveland going 35mph...

 

I'm actually one of those guys who doesn't think you need to have the best equipment to do well. My guns will prove that out It has to meet a minimum level, but it doesn't have to be the absolute best.

I do think whatever you have needs to be adjusted properly. In the case of gun fit, I've come to believe that "shoot where you look" is mostly in reference to the up/down. I've mentioned before that I know I have a tendency to tilt my head forward and look slightly upward, not just in shooting, but all of the time. The distance portion of my everyday glasses had to be moved slightly up from "normal" to accommodate this. Add to this the fact that when I mount most standard shotguns, I'm looking directly at the receiver and I can't even see the bead. Between those two things, I find that a lot of comb height adjustment usually results in me shooting better.

The denial part comes in when I start thinking "I shouldn't need that much comb height, I just need to learn to point the gun up higher when I shoot. However, then it becomes not an instinctive act, but more of a conscious adjusting, and I think under pressure a person will tend to revert back to what is instinctive or natural for them.

I guess the next data point will come based on the results of my next outing.

 

My guess. It's something other than "fit."

+1

 

when I teach kids to shoot (I gave up on adults as they have too much baggage and don't seem to listen , making the whole experience too much like work) , sometimes I have to prove to them that their guns do work and will break targets. I shoot these God-awful abominations and hit skeet targets enough to give the youngster confidence in his/her gun.

I do it by wriggling into the gun. Certainly not ideal and surely no way to compete w/ the iron junk....just enough to get them to realize that their gun can HIT. Worked w/ some twins recently. Their 28g broke w/in 3 shots and my (for kids) 20g s-a was sent in as a pinch hitter. One of the girls was breaking targets almost immediately , and the other would NOT put the gun on her face and hit only a few.

I'd love to see the gifted one get serious pro coaching , cuz in 5 yrs , she'd be a champ. Even w/ my POS gun. She knew NOTHING about guns , quickly caught on about shooting in front and was breaking 45 yd chandelles 2 for 5 after 30 minutes.

She had no basis of "blaming the gun." She didn't know a good one from a bad one. She just gauged the speed of the target and shot where it was going. The gun fit her OK but no where near perfect and since she didn't know , she never worried about it. If an 11 yr old can do it , so can us old farts.

 

The reason is they want their gun to shoot where they look.

How can that be?

 

Gun fit? Tell it to Gebben. His gun fit is terrible. His zygomatic arch is nowhere near the gun, and the stock is on his jaw. No way this gun can shoot where he looks. I doubt he hits much with this gun.