Figures!! :? Just ordered and received 200 CCS sabots and gas seals. CCS sabots really fit the bullet and bore tight. I'll see if I can get some group or pattern pics up when it quits raining. First test loads are:

42 gns Longshot
350 g .50 cal. Horn XTP
Fiocchi 2 3/4 hull
1 ccs gas seal
1 BPI FS12

25 gns Unique
350 g .50 cal Horn XTP
Fiocchi 2 3/4 hull
1 ccs gas seal
3 .125 hard cards

Stace

 

Hello Stace please keep us all informed about your progress with CCS sabot and how well they work out for you and what gun are you using to test them with! Whats the load data that comes with CCS sabots
can you share it with us.
Thanks
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

Can't log onto my photo server so my load data scans won't load up. The shotguns will be Rem11-87, 1100, 870, all with rem bbls. and a Win. SX3 with a Badger bbl. SX3 and 870 are shimmed and all have cantilever/vibralever bbls. Stace

 

Will soon be available with in the next 10 days. Please dont start calling them for another one week as new loads are being developed and you'll be glad you waited.
Just hang in there! Please.
Ajay Madan
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

so what did they change?

 

Al, I talked with BPI last fri. and tried to get some for testing and was told they are trying different configurations before the start production. That is what I was told and that they only had enough for thier testing. Stace

 

always happens just before season too.

 

I can't believe there are only 2 sources of sabot wads.....? Just Bls-12 and CCS?
CCS were $35 bucks for 50.....ouch!

AND....Yea, why do they do this right in the middle of hunting season?

Stace, any luck with the CCS sabots? How bout with Hodgdon Clays? there was a recipe for 23 grams with a 350 gr bullet.

 

GJ,
I am not having much luck with fast powders. Hard to get high velocities (1600-1700 fps) before blowing up the sabots. Been working with alliant steel and have had some great groups at 50yds with velocities at 1800fps. Been to windy to even try groups at 100yds. but weather looks promising this weekend. CCS sabots are pricey but they do engage the rifling and will group. Stace

 

Weather was pretty nice our way, we're just down wind from you. Did You have a chance to shoot a few with the CCS sabots this weekend?

Do you find a 300 gr bullet is just a bit too light and inconsistent?

 

Weather was pretty nice our way, we're just down wind from you. Did You have a chance to shoot a few with the CCS sabots this weekend?

Do you find a 300 gr bullet is just a bit too light and inconsistent?

Yep did some more shooting but not any fantastic groups. Still having problems blowing sabots with the higher velocity charges. Win. has the right idea putting a metal ring molded right in the base of thier sabots. Have another configuration to try when I complete some gun work for friends. I do feel the Rem factory bbls. are a little too big in bore dia. and too slow of twist for consistant sabot release with the CCS. When the CCS's are shot from the Badger bbl(1in26") they are opened up quite a bit but out of the Rem bbl they look as if you just stuffed em in the hull. Did you get your BLS-12's yet? Stace

 

Yep got em today, hope you got my mail today too. Made a few shells, check out this other post:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=194886&start=20

 

Hello friends just hang in there for your ship is coming with a load of BLS 12 Sabots
The fact is the sabots have been in their ware house for 2 weeks now and are blue this time. Since the last time BPI had gotten a bad name
due to their OP wads X12X that was the culprit in causing the sabots to burn through the wad, where as it should have been a barrier between the two! I would re-design the OP wad since that is the weakest part causing havoc with accuracy.
We would need to use slower burning powders to gradually build pressure as the sabot
moves up the barrel. For it to work right the OP wad has to keep the powder gases from
burning through it.
If you want higher velocity then the only safe way is to reduce the slug/bullet weight but then you run the risk of not being able to develop good ignition with the slowest of powders and lighter bullets.
I do not believe an 18 inch barrel is all you need to burn all the powder, some feel in longer barrels the slug will start slowing down inside the barrel as gases run out along with barrel fiction. In late1970's I was testing my slugs with AL-8, Al-7, SR 7625, Blue Dot, Herco, SR 4756 and H 2400 powder and had opted for a 26 inch barrel to get the maximum velocity. I still feel you need at least 24 inch barrel for the powder to almost fully burn. Rem.new 870 slug gun has 25-1/2 inch heavy barrel with 1 inch diameter at the muzzle, why not 18 or 20 inch. That says something.
Good news is just around the corner.
Ajay Madan
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

We would need to use slower burning powders to gradually build pressure as the sabot
moves up the barrel. For it to work right the OP wad has to keep the powder gases from
burning through it.

Ajay,
There was a recipe for the older gray BLS-12, FS12, 350 gr hornady, 23 gr of CLAYS.

I have a Mossberg 500 rifled 24" 1:36 barrel.

How about using a lighter 300 gr hornady 50cal FTX (Flex-ballistic tip) and 22 gr of CLAYS.
I just bought 2 lbs of CLAYS for that recipe but are you thinking it burns too fast for these new BLS-12's? :?

I just loaded some of these and shimmed the bullet to snug the sabot tightly into the hull also hoping that will make it engage the rifling. I will be shooting these this saturday.

 

Hello friends just hang in there for your ship is coming with a load of BLS 12 Sabots
The fact is the sabots have been in their ware house for 2 weeks now and are blue this time. Since the last time BPI had gotten a bad name
due to their OP wads X12X that was the culprit in causing the sabots to burn through the wad, where as it should have been a barrier between the two! I would re-design the OP wad since that is the weakest part causing havoc with accuracy.
We would need to use slower burning powders to gradually build pressure as the sabot
moves up the barrel. For it to work right the OP wad has to keep the powder gases from
burning through it.
If you want higher velocity then the only safe way is to reduce the slug/bullet weight but then you run the risk of not being able to develop good ignition with the slowest of powders and lighter bullets.
I do not believe an 18 inch barrel is all you need to burn all the powder, some feel in longer barrels the slug will start slowing down inside the barrel as gases run out along with barrel fiction. In late1970's I was testing my slugs with AL-8, Al-7, SR 7625, Blue Dot, Herco, SR 4756 and H 2400 powder and had opted for a 26 inch barrel to get the maximum velocity. I still feel you need at least 24 inch barrel for the powder to almost fully burn. Rem.new 870 slug gun has 25-1/2 inch heavy barrel with 1 inch diameter at the muzzle, why not 18 or 20 inch. That says something.
Good news is just around the corner.
Ajay Madan
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

dunno about the x12x being the culprit, I tried stacking .200 hard cards from the powder up, even put a .200 thick delrin spacer under the sabot, and still had the bullets pushing thru with pretty much everything I tried.

The only thing that showed promise was when I cut that cushion base off and kept the delrin spacer under it. Then the sabots became unavaiable, but maybe this new one will renew some hope.

 

Hello GJinNY I would prefer slower powders like SR4759, Steel, Blue Dot, HS-7, Longshot, SR4756, HS-6 and Lilgun but since you already have bought Clays be sure to use thicker darker nitro cards from BPI right on top of your OP wad to create a solid barrier to keep out the burning gases from getting to the BLS 12. I had bought those from BPI 12 gauge.170 darker nitro cards. See if you can use two to help further. Use BP GS-2 instead of X12X. If you use FS12 OP wad then you might not have enough room to put two .170 nitro cards so stick with GS 2 OP wads. GJinNY please cut the little central post with a smaller screw driver in your sabots.
Here's the load # 81022-188
BLS 12 with .50 cal. 350 gr Hornady HP-XTP, Fiocchi 2 3/4 hull, Fio. 616, 23 grs of H.Clays, Wad FS 12 flex seal, BLS 12, roll crimp, 1750 fps, 10,100 psi.
( If you cut the cushion part of BLS 12 then use GS2 on top of your powder followed by a 12 gauge .170 darker nitro card now put another GS2 and the BLS 12 shot cup only with the bullet should fit.)
The sabot arms ( petals ) bend them back flat on a table so that they are sure to open rapidly and release the bullet. You might have to put a .410 card in the BLS 12 to raise your bullet so the nips or the tits can grab on the bullet and lock it in, if the bullet moves then it will very easily punch into the bottom of the BLS 12 upon ignition and launch! You want the BLS to hold the bullet in place guaranteeing maximum imparting of the spin from the rifling to increase accuracy.Since I cast my own bullets I use Lee C501-440-RF and it weigh about 445 to 450 grs when cast of WW. I water quench them to harden. Its a 2 cavity mould for $19 from Midsouth or Midway and the bullet fits just right into the BLS 12.
Here's more loading data:
BPI Guide: BLS-12
ID# Ref# Ga. Len. Hull Primer Powder Gr. Gas Seal/Wad Over Shot SLUG MFG
Type PSI FPS Crimp
80929 79 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 24.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady
HP-XTP 10200 2200 ROLL
81001 110 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 24.5 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR
Hornady HP-XTP 11500 2400 ROLL
81006 128 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 22.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady
HP-XTP 11400 2450 ROLL
80929 81 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 23.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady
HP-XTP 10900 2100 ROLL
81006 127 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 20.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady
HP-XTP 11200 2350 ROLL
81001 112 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 33.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 10400 2600 ROLL
81002 114 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 35.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 11200 2650 ROLL
80929 82 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 26.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady
HP-XTP 10200 1700 ROLL
81002 116 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 28.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR
Hornady HP-XTP 11400 2100 ROLL
81003 123 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 INTERNATIONAL 30.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12
350GR Hornady HP-XTP 11000 2200 ROLL
81003 122 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 24.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady
HP-XTP 11200 2150 ROLL
81006 129 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 HS6 44.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady
JFP MAG 11100 2400 ROLL
81006 130 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 38.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 9700 2350 ROLL
80929 117 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A CLAYS 28.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 300GR
Hornady HP-XTP 14000 2200 ROLL
81006 133 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A E3 27.0 X12X+FS12+14CORK12+BLS12 COS12
300GR Hornady HP-XTP 11200 1600 ROLL
80929 83A 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A INTERNATIONAL 34.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12
350GR Hornady HP-XTP 13600 2600 ROLL
80929 83B 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A INTERNATIONAL 32.0 X12X+FS12+BLS12 COS12
350GR Hornady HP-XTP 13500 2800 ROLL
81003 125 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A HS6 46.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 11700 2400 ROLL
81006 133 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A HS6 50.0 (2)BPGS+FS12+14CORK12 COS12
500GR Hornady JFP MAG 12900 2750 ROLL
81002 118 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 40.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 10600 2350 ROLL
81003 124 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 42.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR
Hornady JFP MAG 11600 2450 ROLL
81006 131 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 44.0 BPGS+(2)FS12+BLS12 COS12
500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11400 2400 ROLL
81006 132 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 46.0 (2)BPGS+FS12+14CORK12
(2)COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 12500 2550 ROLL
BLS-12 SLUG
*Roll Crimps: This is a rigid load requirement at this time.
WARNING: BALLISTIC PRODUCTS, INC. DISCLAIMS ALL POSSIBLE LIABILITY FOR
DAMAGES, INCLUDING ACTUAL, INCIDENTAL, AND CONSEQUENTIAL, RESULTING FROM
USAGE OF
INFORMATION OR ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS AND OTHER PUBLICATIONS, LABELS,
CATALOGS AND BOOKLETS. USE DATA AND ADVICE AT YOUR OWN RISK AND WITH
CAUTION.
WHERE DATA LIST SPECIFIC COMPONENTS, NO CHANGES OR SUBSTITUTIONS FOR THESE

The little central post directly below the wad and in between the cushion has been removed in these newer BLS 12 Sabots that are now blue and were black a few months back thats when they ran a high speed film test to see what was going wrong! The gas seal part has changed some what and the OD of the sabot will fit the rifling much tighter.
I had a long talk with BPI today asking them to release the sabots in time for this hunting season but they are still hesitating to release them as they are still testing them. They do not want to take any chances and only release them when they are satisfied it will perform the way it should.
I am sorry for getting you excited. I know, I'm an old clunker.
Ajay Madan
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

Wonder if they went to Gualandi and simply settled for the same material composition as used in their BluForce sabots ? (That product color is already associated with BPI ). If they did that without changing it to a tougher formulation for rifled bores it just might be an issue. A additive that would allow for expansion after initial molding might solve some of their problems in bore diameter but a physically new mold might be a better answer.
For that matter they may have even used the cushion design from the BluForce as a substitute for the old design with the post. We will see !

 

GJinNY please cut the little central post with a smaller screw driver in your BLS-12 sabots.

Why get rid of the post at the bottom of the sabot?

 

Hello GJinNY you need to cut out that post as it will pierce into the bottom of the sabot where the bullet is seated. That is when push comes to shove, ignition and launch time!
We are all friend and friends dont give bad advise unless they are drunk! I'm not.
I wrote pretty much a whole post for you, please read and help yourself.
I'm in a good mood are you ready for my joke: I shoot very accurately at the target at 300 yards by pointing at the Moon. I guess for 200 yards I'll have to aim at the sky to hit it. This I do in my Dreams.
Can't always be serious!
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

I got a hold of some BLS-12 older style and loaded them as above and the .45 cal muzzleloader bullets blow through the sabot. AND they are too skinny and tumbled terrible.

Better success with the .50 cal hornady ftx 300 gr bullets with a thin carboard shim around them.
NO blown sabots!

The shim was enough to fatten them up to be tight in the hull and engage the rifling.

The patterning wasn't bad at 50 yrd for a first try.

..........................

YOU CAN SEE ONE IN EACH PICTURE WAS SIDEWAYS.
SABOTS DROPPED AT 25 TO 40 YDS. FS12 GAS SEALS IN GREAT SHAPE.

I used 22 gr of CLAYS for this and I will bump that to 23, maybe 24 gr for next try.
22 gr was ok but I could tell the power was on the low side.

The newer BLS-12 is due out in December. It will take care of the need for shims and sabot blowthrough.

 

Hello GJinNY you are good for you dont give up! Can you please try using sand paper strip of 5/8 or 3/4 inch wide as shim. This will grab the bullet and let the rifling impart the spin without slipping. Looking forwards to hear more about your sucess.
Great news! Keep the spices coming.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

OK, good idea with the sand paper. the card board shim dropped off at about 20 feet.

I was also shooting 12 ga HORNADY SST sabots and I picked up the sabots, hard card and gas seals.

anyone identify #2 and #4 ??? that little plastic #2 disk sat under the bullet inside the sabot. I think that is how they solved the blow through problem.

 

Hello GJinNY to me the #4 looks like BPGS-2 OP wad and the # two is a hard plastic disc to simply keep the bullet from digging into the base of the sabot. Now for #4 you can either get the GS2 Air wedge #3221222 Or get 322X12X for $6.99 for 250pcs or
even 3221223 OP wad for $5.99 for 250pcs.
As for # 2 I would use the cheapest thinnest metal washer I could find on the market just below the bullet to keep it from digging in the base of the sabot.
The fun is starting now keep it up.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

 

OK, good idea with the sand paper. the card board shim dropped off at about 20 feet.

I was also shooting 12 ga HORNADY SST sabots and I picked up the sabots, hard card and gas seals.

anyone identify #2 and #4 ??? that little plastic #2 disk sat under the bullet inside the sabot. I think that is how they solved the blow through problem.

couple of years back I cut a SST open, it had a rubber washer under the bullet, so I tried some of those under the bullet in the BPI sabot, didn't help.

 

BPI sure pee-pee'd on thier shoes with that junk gray sabot.
No gas seal worked, they ALL burned through, and those claims of hi velocity were pure science fiction.
I won't go into details in case some master reloader wants to duplicate what I did but I shared my results with BPI.
In 4 days I had 100 gray sabots, 50 of 350 and 50 of the 500 grain Hornady bullets with notes of encouragement.
All for FREE.
Still have 'em too. Porbably always will.
Why in gowds name would BPI wait till DECEMBER to release a pretty blue sabot????????? that is supossed to be the cats patoot in the sabot world.
No I DO NOT use the things.
Thye make no sense to me at all.

 

I really wonder if the new ones will work ? I am stuck with 300 of the old gray ones !