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Trying to come up with a bunker load(~1330 fps, 24 gm(7/8 oz)) using gun club hulls, win 209's and tgt 12 wads. After looking at the H web site, it seemed International powder had the best characteristics(wider range, lower pressure). Much to my surprise, when I chrono'ed what I thought would be 1330, it was 1460! I had to go from a 33 bushing to a 30 bushing and their latest website still shows what I assume is data for the old formulation. WTF, I'm glad I didn't try to start off over 1350(and there are some mfg's loads close to 1400). I will continue to use this, but I'm looking for a backup powder in case I can't find this again. Thanks,
 

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s1rk1118 said:
Trying to come up with a bunker load(~1330 fps, 24 gm(7/8 oz)) using gun club hulls, win 209's and tgt 12 wads. After looking at the H web site, it seemed International powder had the best characteristics(wider range, lower pressure). Much to my surprise, when I chrono'ed what I thought would be 1330, it was 1460! I had to go from a 33 bushing to a 30 bushing and their latest website still shows what I assume is data for the old formulation. WTF, I'm glad I didn't try to start off over 1350(and there are some mfg's loads close to 1400). I will continue to use this, but I'm looking for a backup powder in case I can't find this again. Thanks,
How many grains did the 33 bushing and the 30 bushing drop for you? and you didn't mention how many grains the recipe called for that you were using.
 

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You have not told us how much powder you actually put in the shell (not bushing #, actual weight.)
You have not told us how much powder you wanted (recipe) in the shell.
You have not told us what kind of chrono you used.
But, you want us to tell you why things did not work as expected.
It don't work that way!

However, it has been well documented in several forums for at least a year that the new Clays and new International Clays drop heavier, often 1-2 bushings off. It has also been well documented by just about every bit of published load data for the last 20-30 years that bushing charts are only a tool to get you in the ballpark, you MUST USE A SCALE to confirm. .
 

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Put another way - recipes are give powder drops by weight, bushings only measure volume.

Weight and Volume are related but if the density of the powder changes so will the metering done by the bushing.

Always have a reliable scale when loading so you can check your powder drops.
 

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I'll disagree with the conclusion International is the better powder for this application. A faster powder will be more economical and give higher pressures, leading to more consistent performance and cleaner burning loads. I would prefer Titewad for this application.
 

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Nebs said:
I'll disagree with the conclusion International is the better powder for this application. A faster powder will be more economical and give higher pressures, leading to more consistent performance and cleaner burning loads. I would prefer Titewad for this application.
Ya got that right!
19-20 grains at around 10,000 PSI
OR
21-22 grains at around 8,000 PSI.
I know which one I'd pick.
 

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I played a bit with Clays for 7/8 oz loads and wasn't impressed. I've used Titewad for years. Only downside was at was a little messy in the gun and on the loading bench, but definitely not a show stopper. I recently switched to Vectan A24 because it is a little more economical both in amount used and cost. 16.1 grains of A24, CBO178 wad, in GC hull gives me about 1275 fps.
 

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Terrapin said:
I played a bit with Clays for 7/8 oz loads and wasn't impressed. I've used Titewad for years. Only downside was at was a little messy in the gun and on the loading bench, but definitely not a show stopper. I recently switched to Vectan A24 because it is a little more economical both in amount used and cost. 16.1 grains of A24, CBO178 wad, in GC hull gives me about 1275 fps.
Terrapin,
What was it that left you unimpressed with Clays and 7/8 ounce loads? I used this combination for years and never experienced any problems. The loads were clean, the SDs were low from what I remember on the chrony results and I never had any bad performance due to cold weather. I agree that Titewad, Extra Lite, or A24 is a better choice from an economical standpoint, however I just wondered what problems you experienced with the Clays loadings?

Chris
 

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It took 2-3 grains more per load, has a higher retail, and then all the unknowns about shifting density. I have about 8 lbs sitting on the shelf, I'll just hang on to it for 1 oz sporting clays loads and handicap trap loads. My volume load is 7/8 oz skeet and youth loads, so 8 lbs of Clays will last a long time.
 

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Titewad is amazing stuff. It is cheap, it does not require much of it, it meters very consistently, it burns clean, and it makes things fit real well in an AAHS. With 1 1/8 ounce at 1200 FPS you have to be real careful with wad and primer selection. Below that (in weight or velocity) it is great.
 

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Nebs said:
I'll disagree with the conclusion International is the better powder for this application. A faster powder will be more economical and give higher pressures, leading to more consistent performance and cleaner burning loads.
I agree. What's wrong with using a purpose-built 7/8th's ounce powder for a 7/8th's oz load ?

Something like Vectan's A24, Prima-SV, or Alliants Extra-Lite (if you can ever find it).

Nebs said:
I would prefer Titewad for this application.
I wouldn't. titeWad still isn't a purpose-built 7/8th's oz powder. Vectan's Prima-SV & A24 are.

You guys need to break out of this "compromise" mode, - the powder shortage is over, remember ?
 

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Republican said:
What's wrong with using a purpose-built 7/8th's ounce powder for a 7/8th's oz load ?
Why do you always throw this term around? You do realize that there's no such thing right?

A powder's burn-speed is what makes it ideal, suitable, or not suitable for any given application. The closest thing you might get to a "purpose-built" propellant is if an OEM sends precise specs for a specific factory load. But guess what? Your 7/8oz 12ga requirements may precisely match my 115gr 9mm specs. So is the powder "purpose-built" for 9mm or 12ga?
 

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Shoot2reload said:
Republican said:
What's wrong with using a purpose-built 7/8th's ounce powder for a 7/8th's oz load ?
Why do you always throw this term around? You do realize that there's no such thing right?

A powder's burn-speed is what makes it ideal, suitable, or not suitable for any given application. The closest thing you might get to a "purpose-built" propellant is if an OEM sends precise specs for a specific factory load. But guess what? Your 7/8oz 12ga requirements may precisely match my 115gr 9mm specs. So is the powder "purpose-built" for 9mm or 12ga?
shoot,
it is a purpose built powder to run through high volume shell reloading machines. thats why some powders are designed and made like they are. powders are not found or mined out of the ground.
they are actually designed to have a set density within a set range and characteristics of a set amount of energy relating to the amount of propellent / chemical thats incorporated, moles / gram/ kg etc.
GM3 over here is a classic, it was designed with one thing in mind, cheap and reload 1,1/8oz loads on a machine at a high rate. saves on wages and gets more shells out the door per day. these are used for the dirty cheap pigeon shells used here. when 28gram shells got popular this powder was used for the cheapest dirtyeast shells ever. they were awful. the only thing they had going for them is they were cheep-cheep like a budgie.

the 7/8oz dedicated powders started to get on the market when the price of GM3 doubled. it straight doubled over night. infact, we could buy only 500g with £15, now its like £60 a kilo. (yes i know its 4x the price, but i`m going back quite a few years now. the £60/kilo is todays price). the popularity of the lighter shells took off, especially the english sporting loads, created a niche market of low density high burn rate powders that can be used with "conventional" wad components and limited payload (lead). out came A24, lowsonic, and a few others. all to be run on high speed industrial shell machines, that lowsonic is cool stuff, only available in drums.
on the second part of your statement, i actually bought a pistol powder and made it work in the same 7/8oz load, format. i just straight abused that powder. infact i got something like 4 loads or so, ranging from 3/4oz subsonic to a very economic 1oz at 15grains gets me 1300fps. (that a guaranteed 1300fps in a test barrel )

to the OP.
test barrels perform differently than sporting barrels. speeds differ as do barrel lengths.
nb.
have fun.
 

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leftieD said:
Drive-by OP?
not quite,
if i`m lead to believe, the cip test barrels are 28" and this differs from the saami specs.
different barrels, different speeds, different patterns too.
that what makes reloading so magic.

a case in point on this issue.
i reloaded and tested a shell. i got x fps out of the test barrel. i then talked to another reloader who manufactured the exact same shell exactly. and he got alot more speed out of it than i, through his gun it was faster, through the test barrel was slower. but through my sporter barrel was "safe, and i couldnt care less."
 

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Shoot2reload said:
Why do you always throw this term around?
I guess I meant "principal purpose" (shotgun powder).



Ironically, Extra-Lite is used as an OEM propellant for factory Federal shells.
But the term "more suitable", or 'ideal', or 'best use' all describe the same thing.

Using International in 12-ga 7/8th's ounce isn't described by any of those terms.
 
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